Ep. 218: The Exquisite Love, Magic and Maximalism of Londubh Studio

Custom surface artists Lisa Donohoe and Brynn Gelbard met and fell in love in the queer underbelly scene of San Francisco in 2002, a time before bi-national same-sex marriage was legal. Their diverse community was built on love, curiosity and celebrating each other's differences. In an evolution that was equal parts organic maturity and cosmic intervention, Brynn and Lisa moved to Los Angeles and founded Londubh Studio, specializing in elaborate and maximalist hand-applied surface designs. Now the duo, oft considered the design world’s secret weapon, are translating their wildness, love, magic, and the sacred, through exquisite artistry and pristine craft, into visual celebrations that vibrate with love and emanate joy.

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Read the Transcript

Brynn Gelbard: Ultimately, our goal is to create these places, spaces that bring people from all walks of life together and be so uplifted that they reconnect with their sense of joy or sense of the sacred. 

Amy Devers: Hi everyone! I'm Amy Devers, and this is Clever. Today, I'm talking to Lisa Donohoe and Brynn Gelbard of Londubh Studio. Londubh specializes in the creation of custom art, surface designs, wall coverings, and textiles for residential, commercial, hospitality, and experiential spaces. Founded in 2011 by Brynn and Lisa, two women dedicated to living life on the edge in full color and shimmer, whose art and surface designs are an unapologetic love letter to maximalism and glam.

Londubh is a secret weapon of the design world, with some of the most notable names in the industry seeking them out for their pristine craftsmanship, unparalleled artistry, and boundless creativity. Londubh means blackbird in Gaelic and represents both the duo's love of nature and the iridescent, shimmery way in which they express nature in their work.

Their hand applied installations feature paints, glazes, decorative plasters, and metal leaf. Their portfolio includes everything from building facades to diving boards, large scale murals to bathtubs, and every traditional surface imaginable. They've been showcased at serious design exhibitions like Salone del Mobile in Milan.

And among other projects, have recently completed several custom environments for a historic mansion in San Francisco with celebrated interior designer, Nicole Hollis, and an installation for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, interpreting satellite images and custom decorative plasters and gold and copper leaf.

It's not surprising that NASA would seek them out. There's definitely something cosmic at play here. As you'll hear, they're translating love, magic, and the sacred through exquisite artistry and extreme technical proficiency into visual celebrations that vibrate with love and emanate joy. Whether you see their work on the side of a building, on Instagram, or hear about it here, you definitely feel it.

Amy Devers: Here's Brynn and Lisa.

Brynn Gelbard: My name is Brynn Gelbard. I currently live in Los Angeles. and I'm one half of Londubh Studio. 

Lisa Donohoe: My name is Lisa Donohoe. I also live in Los Angeles, coincidentally, on the other half of Londubh Studio. Two halves make a whole, I hear. 

Amy Devers: Well, I love meeting you, and I can't wait to unpack the whole story of Londubh Studio. So, let's go back to before you were a duo, when you were your own separate beings doing what you do as children? Like, [00:03:00] where did you grow up? And how is your creativity manifesting? 

Lisa Donohoe: I grew up in Ireland. I was born in Dublin and I've always been an artist. Um, ever since I can remember, I was always painting, drawing, scribbling, doodling, um, like all my copybooks throughout school were always just covered. It was just always my, my first form of self expression. It was, I did it without even thinking, oh, this is art, I'm creating art. It was just something that came out of me. And that hasn't really changed. The methods have changed over the years, but it's always been my first method of self expression. And I just…Growing up in Ireland, I was really exposed to a lot of history, art, architecture, you know, in school, one of my earliest memories in school, like probably like six or seven, go to see the Book of Kells. It's in the library in Trinity College. If you haven't been to see it, you have to go if you visit Dublin. It's like an illuminated manuscript from the 9th century. Wow. And. [00:04:00] It moved me so much and there was so much detail and it was done by hand by these monks and I was just like, how is that even possible? And I feel like that was such a transformational moment for me as an artist because I was like, wow, look what you can do if you put time and energy and effort into something. 

Amy Devers: And how old were you when you had that experience? 

Lisa Donohoe: Probably like And maybe seven or eight, I think. 

Brynn Gelbard: Makes perfect sense. 

Lisa Donohoe: I mean, growing up in Ireland, like things like that are around all the time. There's so much history. Everything is so old there anyway, that you're just kind of just being around that. And it was good that our school, like, used to bring us to places like that and really kind of immerse us in the culture and immerse us in the history and expose us to the art and all the amazing things that were created. Like, we'd also go to Newgrange, which is, it's like a, uh, Neolithic shrine, um, kind of like Stonehenge, but it's, it's filled in. It's like an earthen [00:05:00] mound and it's, um, from like 3, 200 BC. So it's like 5, 000 years old. And there's like amazing carvings on the rock, megalithic art, like spirals and geometric patterns.

And, you know, also going there on a school tour when I was probably maybe nine and also being really inspired by that as well, and just like, you know, Well, these people created this 5, 000 years ago, like obviously a massive effort to put the big stones and to, they got the stones in from like hundreds of miles away.

Like, how did they do it? Kind of like in building the pyramids, like how did, how did they manage to do it? And then all of the decoration on it, carvings in the stones, you're like, it obviously meant something really important to them. The exact meanings have been lost over time, but I really felt them. I felt when I was there, the connection with just like, wow, somebody is communicating through this 5, 000 years later and I'm feeling it. I'm picking up on it. I don't know exactly what it is, but it moved me so much. 

Amy Devers: I'm happy you shared that story. And I want to maybe unpack that even a little bit more later, because I do think there is a kind of energy transmission that happens. It's, From the artist to the page or whatever the media is, and it sort of stays embedded and I'm, and this is one of the reasons why I'm so moved by your work is I like to really think about the energy and love and craft that you both put into the work, staying in the room with the work and really being part of the ambiance, not just visually, But energetically.

And so I was really moved doing research about the both of you and, and just about the care that, and the dynamic that you both have together. So we'll talk more about that later, but as a child, when you're having this kind of transcendent experience, when it's… You're experiencing art and it's really sort of blowing the lid off the cathedral. Are you supported in this? Like, is there backup from your family life in terms of appreciation of the arts and appreciation of your creativity? 

Lisa Donohoe: I mean, yes. I mean, uh, a lot of other family members are creative. My dad was, was a great artist. Um, my, both my sisters, older sisters are both creatives. My grandfather on my mom's side was really creative as well. So it was kind of like, it was always encouraged art and like, that's your thing and you can do whatever you want with that. There was always kind of an understanding there that if I wanted to pursue that, that path that I would be supported. And that was kind of like, yeah, go for it. 

Amy Devers: That's awesome. 

Lisa Donohoe: It's amazing and um, and ultimately I didn't decide to be an artist professionally till later in life, but it was just when the timing was right, the timing was right. But I never stopped. I was always creating through the whole time. 

Amy Devers: Brynn, what about you?

Brynn Gelbard: Really, words were my medium my whole, childhood. Like I was writing stories before I knew how to spell. So for me, learning [00:08:00] to spell was such a relief because then I could actually communicate with what I was writing. And so for me, writing and telling stories, that was always my thing from a really young age. And you know, to be honest, I, I loved art in school, but I never ever considered myself an artist. I took like a sculpture class in college that I loved and I took an architecture class in college that I loved, but as a kid, I never, like I, to this day, I can't really draw anything.

You know, a lot of the digital programs obviously give you a way to express yourself, but I never saw myself as an artist because I couldn't draw. And I tried and I tried and I, I never could get perspective. And so, so often when I look at people doing various kinds of art to this day, I wonder what would have happened if I'd, had [00:09:00] someone come along and be like, no, go for it.

You know, I, you know, my, my education growing up was so much more kind of get into a good college. I grew up on Long Island outside of New York city. And it was really so much more about like, grades and sports and getting into a good school and having good extracurricular activities that would get you into the best school possible. And that was my childhood. I never really considered life as an artist. And it was really, honestly, by accident, you know, Lisa and I have been together for 22 years. It was really because of our love for creating together and realizing while making short films that we love to work together that we ended up working together. But it was all really through kind of cosmic intervention then. really both of us being artists and coming together. 

Amy Devers: Cosmic intervention is one of my favorite things. Okay. But I want to go back to this idea of you being a wordsmith and not identifying as creative because I had the same situation. Like I couldn't draw and I ended up expressing myself through like music and haircuts and decorating my room all weird, you know? And so I knew I had this latent creativity, but it wasn't typical creativity. And so therefore I didn't really identify with it. And I also have a thing for words. And I think words are creative. And I think also, if you're a storyteller, that you might, you tell me, but do you think of yourself as a systems thinker?

Brynn Gelbard: You know, it's funny that you say that because that concept has been really prominent in our lives lately. And the truth of the matter is, I think Lisa and I exist so much outside of the box and beyond systems and sometimes friends of ours who are like really tight with systems and have great systems and understand systems were like, Oh, you get how things work and you can operate within systems because our whole world essentially is systematic.

You know what I mean? And I think, For people like me and Lisa, we have a lot of knowledge and we understand what we have to do in order to create and make it work visually and, you know, in terms of lasting. But do we have systems in place? as much as we need to, you know what I mean? But beyond that, we're, we're really freewheeling, you know what I mean?

And so I think there are just people who are, are meant to kind of butt up against boundaries when those boundaries aren't really needed. Cause you know, sometimes systems are great. Sometimes systems [00:12:00] make things more productive, but sometimes systems can be restrictive and they don't need to exist. 

Amy Devers: Or they were built for something else a long time ago and they're just still in place. But they need to be adapted and modified. Yeah. 

Brynn Gelbard: Exactly. And I think as people, but also as, as queer artists, you know, we, we just, we follow our hearts and that would be the greatest system that we operate within. You know? 

Amy Devers: Did you always follow your hearts or did you have to learn? 

Brynn Gelbard: I think the truth of the matter is both of us are inherently on the edge enough that to some extent we've always followed our hearts like we've both always been really not like the popular kid or the kid that fit in but you know we've [00:13:00] always been respected for how we did that. You know what I mean? Wouldn't you say? 

Lisa Donohoe: Yeah, for sure. And I think both, yes, following your heart and also learning as you go along as well.

Amy Devers: So when you say you weren't the popular kid, but you were respected for how you showed up on the edge, what did that look like for each of you? 

Lisa Donohoe: I mean, I think for me, it was just like being myself. Even though I wasn't really, maybe, very self aware of what that was, or I was choosing to be myself, or how I was perceived in the world. But, looking back now, it was like, oh yeah, I was kind of out there on the, on the edge. I don't know, people maybe just respected that, and were like, oh, she's a little different, or she's doing her own thing, but she's herself. 

Brynn Gelbard: Lisa also happens to be one of the kindest, funniest people you'll ever meet and just really easy to access for people from all walks of life.

Amy Devers: Thank you. That does help for sure. And I do think people can sense when you're being authentic, you're not trying to fit in, but you're also not trying to not fit in for the sake of anything other than just being real. Yeah. At what point did your lives start to intersect? How did you meet?

Brynn Gelbard: Lisa was my server in a restaurant on January 27th, 2002 in San Francisco. Yeah, it was her, the restaurant she worked at was Chao. Market and it was on church at market in the Castro. I had done my semester abroad in college in New Zealand and I had a few friends from New Zealand visiting a staying on my couch. And, um, I don't even remember how we ended up at Lisa's restaurant, but we ended up having to wait like two hours for a table.

So, by the time we got our table, the host of the restaurant, who to this day is a really good [00:15:00] friend of ours, I remember him saying to me, I'm going to sit you in Lisa's section. And I remember when Lisa came over and she came over with such swagger and she was so cute. And I just remember the first two words that went through my head were, Oh, shit.

Amy Devers: Okay, now I want to hear the other side of the story, Lisa. What was that like for you? 

Lisa Donohoe: So yeah, when, when I came out to say, I was like, oh, this, he's like, oh, there's, I've just put a fun group in your section. I was like, great. And everyone was just so friendly and nice. And we were going around where everyone was from.And you were, you were kind of shy. I mean, knowing you now, you were a little shy, but. 

Brynn Gelbard: But when Lisa gave at the end of our meal, when, when Lisa gave us free chocolate cake. I was like, that deal is sealed. That is just like straight up. 

Lisa Donohoe: It wasn’t just…it was homemade flourless chocolate cake with vanilla bean ice cream and uh, homemade chocolate sauce.

Amy Devers: Okay. Okay, so the chocolate cake sealed the deal. And I'm guessing this is your, your romantic origin story. But the origin story of your creative dynamic is still yet to unfold, correct? 

Brynn Gelbard: Yeah. So we got together in, in 2002 in San Francisco, and we ended up moving to LA in the end of 2009, so we didn't start Londubh until 2011. We did make a few short films and, you know, Lisa being creative, like when I was in San Francisco, I was working in like some small production houses and, you know, sometimes we would go and work with this English filmmaker team in the UK and Lisa worked in the art department while I worked in production. But then Lisa started getting into it, but she didn't have a driver's license. So she would start taking art department jobs, but I would have [00:17:00] to take jobs as her assistant, you know, because otherwise she had no way of getting there. 

Lisa Donohoe: And then 10 days before we moved to LA, I got my license because Brynn was like, I don't mind driving around San Francisco.It's okay not to have a driver's license in San Francisco. It's kind of normal, but she's like, not LA, get your license. I was like, okay. And I did.

Amy Devers: really. Okay. Already, you guys are working well together. 

Brynn Gelbard: Yes. And that was how we knew, you know, from taking those projects, whether it was where she was taking art department jobs and I had to drive her, or her taking art department jobs for things that I was doing.

And then we started making some kind of queer short films with friends that were in like the Frameline Film Festival and stuff like that. And we just really knew that we had a really great time together and that, you know, we'd always party together when we were young. We had so much fun. And then It really started to translate [00:18:00] into creating together because, you know, creative work is really like the partying of the work world.

I think when you really get to like mature your wild ways into something productive, which is really was why we left San Francisco ultimately to move to LA was to really cement our growing up and shifting from wild, blowing off steam, baby queers to making something of our lives. 

Amy Devers: How old are you when you decided you needed to make this move to LA?

Brynn Gelbard: I was 32 and Lisa was… 

Amy Devers: Okay. Yeah, I guess that is time to go. Yeah, but I'm glad you had the wild years too because I feel like those sometimes don't get the credit they deserve for actually teaching you about life. 

Brynn Gelbard: Agreed. That was a piece of advice that someone gave me when the summer I was 20 I drove cross [00:19:00] country and worked in the psych department of UCSD and stayed with my aunt's best friend from college, and she was a lawyer, and I remember, I remember being 20 and her putting like my first martini that I ever had down in front of me and telling me that I should make sure to spend my 20s really exploring and getting to know myself. And she's like, that's a time that you're never going to have back, that you can make all the mistakes you want.

You can explore, you can be stupid and silly and you can learn and learn what ignites your heart. You know, I think that's, that's a really important piece of advice, especially in our, in our society that is… has an education system that's so much about learn this, feed it back, learn this, feed it back, learn this.

We don't really learn to explore and to really know who we are. We have to do that on our own. And so I think for us at the time that we ended up choosing to kind of grow up and evolve, it was perfectly right for us. I think one of the things about San Francisco and those times was in the world that we hung out in in San Francisco, it was, I would say the underbelly of the queer world.

So it was very diverse. It was very diverse in every term, whether it was Gay, straight, trans, whatever, everyone under the sun, let's just put it that way. People from all walks of life, all over the country, all over, you know, beyond the country. And I think being in that realm of being around so many people and who accepted one another and who, you know, some of our closest friends in that scene were also straight.And those people fit into that scene because nowhere else were they allowed to be [00:21:00] that free. 

I think that freedom and that interacting with people from so many walks of life and, and embracing curiosity as Our greatest asset, you know what I mean? When you can learn to find things in common with people from whom in the conventional world, you'd be seen as so different.

And when you're in that realm where you're all kind of outcasted in some way, but you're not there to, Be sad about being outcasted. You're there to celebrate Unity. Oh, we found this place where we can all find things in common and celebrate and I I think having that time period is so influential for us. It just makes us willing and comfortable with working with people from all walks of life and learning from people from all walks of life.

And it makes us comfortable with evolving and changing. You know what I mean? I think being together for 22 years, we've, people say to us, what is the thing that you would pass along to anyone. It's like, we all go through life and we're influenced and we grow and we change and we evolve and let that be and celebrate that, you know? And I think that's one of the greatest things for both of us is that we have been together for 22 years and we're totally different people in a lot of ways than we were when we met. 

Lisa Donohoe: Absolutely. And we've always allowed and encouraged each other too to grow and change and expected that and shared that on completely.

Amy Devers: So you're in the frame of mind that you want to be consciously intentional about how your life is going to involve and you want to mature your wild ways into a creative and professional practice. Moving to LA is one of the major steps in that.  And What happens and what precipitates the founding of Londubh?

Lisa Donohoe: I think when we first got here, I started working in the art department through a recommendation from a friend, doing commercials and helping out the art department. And I just was like, Oh my God, I can't do this. This can't be my career because it's not very creative and you're creating a lot of waste and everything's just temporary. And so it didn't feel right. So I wanted to do something else. I had worked for a decorative painting studio while I was in San Francisco. And worked there after I'd finished work in the restaurant. And I had trained there, apprenticed and trained for like five years, I think. Learned all the techniques. A lot of it was very traditional, gold leafing, plastering, glazing, painting.

But every now and then we would have a job that wasn't traditional, that was more contemporary. And I was always excited about how you could take these old techniques and processes and make something completely new of them. So I think when it was clear that I didn't [00:24:00] want to do the, um, the production work, it just was, I was like, I'll just, start my own studio down here and just start it and see what happens.

And at the same time of starting Londubh, I decided to do the interior design program at UCLA because I figured all our clients are going to be interior designers. Most of them, at least starting off. And just to look at the work holistically to see what I would be creating and how that would fit into the broader scope of what they were doing, what the clients wanted and not just me coming and going, well, I like this.

And they're like, yeah, but it's not related to anything to just kind of look at the whole process holistically. So I did that. And, and then not long after that, you jumped into help with Londubh. We had a project for doing these panels, silver leaf panels for the windows for Rodeo drive. And, uh, I was like, I need some help. Brynn was You were just finished some projects and you were looking to do for a little break. [00:25:00] 

Amy Devers: That sounds like a pretty good job for just starting your studio. Did you have contacts or? 

Lisa Donohoe: Actually, somebody through production got us that job. Okay, 

Amy Devers: nice. Okay, so you needed help and Brynn, you roped Brynn in to be your assistant again?

Amy Devers: Yes, even though I could drive this time, I could 

Lisa Donohoe: drive, I had wheels, I was fully operational, but you know, you were looking to take a break from yours. 

Brynn Gelbard: Yeah, I had been traveling around the country. Lisa and I are obviously a bi national same sex couple and leading to the Defense of Marriage Act and Prop 8 going to the Supreme Courtr, I was traveling around the country with an immigration lawyer who focused on protecting same sex bi national couples who couldn't get immigration rights because the Defense of Marriage Act specified that the U. S. government could only recognize opposite sex couples for immigration purposes. So Lisa and I were really lucky because Lisa won a green card in the lottery, which is how she was able to be here.

And as a karmic project, I just felt like, Oh my God, like, you know, the year before I just wanted to make like video portraits of people from all walks of life who had somehow become involved in the LGBTQ rights movement, just to kind of Create a time capsule for down the road so that people would see all these people from all walks of life who were advocating for equality and the year before These two cases went to the Supreme Court an immigration lawyer reached out and he said listen I have a bunch of clients who want to tell their stories.

They're all over the country if I You know cover your travels and stuff. Will you travel with me and Stay with these people and record their stories and. will write articles releasing the stories through the Huffington Post. And so the year before, you know, when Lisa was still at the UCLA program, I was traveling all over from Colorado to Miami to New York, to, you know, all over to interview these couples.

And so when Doma was struck down, that was when Lisa finished UCLA. And so the timing was perfect because I was just emotionally, like, eradicated, if you will. Oh, God, I bet. That sounds so exhausting. Just crazy heartbreaking hearing these people and, and their pure agony not knowing whether or not they were coming out to share their story, to sway public opinion.

If it didn't work, they were, their stories were out there and they were, you know what I mean, they were literally risking everything. So when I finished that project and Lisa needed help, and I knew how much fun I had working with Lisa, it was the perfect [00:28:00] opportunity just to, you know, it was like a heart cuddle right there.

Just go and play and create and be with this person who So lucky to have, and it was never supposed to be anything beyond a breather for me before getting back to my own work. And once again, the universe had other plans. 

Lisa Donohoe: It was really obvious, it was really obvious from that first project that, okay, there's something else going on here. There's, there's, there's something else at play. There's, there's a guiding force that's like driving us together. 

Amy Devers: What were the signs? 

Lisa Donohoe: It's just everything that we, we touched creatively just kind of exploded. 

Brynn Gelbard: like this, you know what I mean? Like Lisa, just starting to teach me, you know, being like, okay, we're going to do projects together and you're going to learn making projects. Like I got to learn working with her and her skillset is so, I mean, I will say, [00:29:00] biased or not, like, I would sit there before we started working together and watch her experiment with our materials and learn from pushing the boundaries once again, what was possible, what was not possible. So there I was getting the opportunity to learn from the best. And one of the things about, Like writing screenplays, it takes so long, you don't finish and then it's finished and you get to see the complete picture. 

Amy Devers: No, you write, you write the screenplay and then you have to shop it or, you know, and… 

Brynn Gelbard: by the time anything happens, you don't necessarily recognize it. You know what I mean? And a lot of what I was doing, you know, as a writer was, was co writing. And, you know, I feel like, When it came time to work with Lisa and being able to start and finish and stand back and relish in the completed project. There was something [00:30:00] so unbelievably satisfying. And it was like, it was this life that I wanted to live.

Amy Devers: Yes, I hear you on that. And it's a very sort of tangible measure of your accomplishment for the day. It's also having a direct impact on the space. And then you're also in the space of the person that you love and admire. And so like, It's showing you a pretty clear picture of like, you could have this life.

Lisa Donohoe: Right. And we, um, we were kind of sharing a space at the time, the studio space. Your, your writing desk was kind of in front of the studio desk where I was doing the experiments and always have leftover plaster from a job and just like, I wonder what would happen if we did this or how can I do this and just trying to push things and then you would be there and you'd be like, that looks good or what would happen if you did?

And there was just all these little inputs and it became this kind of, you know, I feel like me with my traditional skillset and the techniques that I learned. And then you with your kind of, you know, let's call it your punk rock. Well, what would happen if we just did that and thinking of something completely differently off the spectrum? And I was like, well, I don't know. Let's find out because we're here experimenting. And I think that dynamic is what propels the studio. 

Amy Devers: You know, that's beautiful. That dynamic, the one where you have the learned knowledge, the technical expertise, all of the sort of traditional knowledge that you've learned and practiced. And then the novice who's like coming from a very outsider perspective, you know what you like, and you maybe know. what looks good, but you don't know the chemistry of the materials or what is considered doable by this sort of existing body of knowledge. So you're just like, let's poke holes in it. Let's, let's experiment. And it can yield some really interesting results, or at least put you in, down a path of really, like, innovative experimenting. And how nice that you appreciated that. Because it can be wild. 

Lisa Donohoe: Yeah, absolutely. And the things that, the ideas that you would have, I'd be like, I never would even think about that.

Brynn Gelbard: But I think there's something to be said about the balance in asking questions and both of us being willing to receive, no, that's not possible. And here's why. Okay. Or yeah, let me try that. Okay. Me not having the knowledge and Lisa having an incredible amount of knowledge. So it's really, you know, the knowledge is important. Like there's, there's that saying like in order to best break the rules. You need to know the rules. And I think, 

Amy Devers: yeah.

Brynn Gelbard: there's very few people that I've come across in our industry who understand the rules of our materials as much as [00:33:00] Lisa. Like if I ever can't find her. she's quite often bro ing with paint reps, you know what I mean? And really calling to understand like, well, what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And, and like really, and like getting their phone numbers and them being like, well, you want to use it for this? Very often, like one time we did a painted pool deck mural and it had to be a material, this was a, an ocean side, 70 foot long pool in Miami that needed to withstand the ocean, the chlorine, the iguanas that came and laid on it in the morning and peed and rolled around in it, you know, all the different environmental stuff, UV, all of it. 

And it had to be, you know, non slip and all the things. And I think one thing about us is that we have a C33 painting and decorating contractor's [00:34:00] license. So we not only design things that are stylistically sound, but they're built to last. In a given environment. And so that's something that Lisa decided to take on when she started the business to really qualify herself and our company for the most grandiose and high level projects.

And so that when we contact… Lisa spent a long time like, what product should I use? We don't use the same products on every job. We use the products that are right for that job. There's a lot of different products that we use. And a lot of decorative artists there, they use their products and that's what they do. And great for them because it would make life so much easier. 

Amy Devers: Right. Because each new product has a new learning curve associated with it. They have different, they behave differently. They cure differently. They, the color shows up differently. 

Lisa Donohoe: Yeah. 

Amy Devers: And I'm sort of curious, [00:35:00] like, at the point when you take on this, this pool deck job, does the research begin? Do you say, yeah, and then I'll figure it out? Or do you say, I'm not sure. Let me do some research and then I'll come back to you if we can do it. Or is it a little bit of both? If 

Lisa Donohoe: it's something that's Not like a pool deck in those that that environment is very extreme. So that was like, I think we can do it, but let's let's check and let's figure it out. And we just figure it out. You just need to put in the time and effort into doing the R& D. And if it turns out that we couldn't, we'd always be honest and say, actually, you know, we thought we could do this and we can't. We did a project for Jamie Bush, the Butterfly House in Carmel, which is gorgeous, the most gorgeous jo.

Amy Devers: Yes, he was on the show and he talked about that house. 

Lisa Donohoe: He's, he's great. And, uh, when we first met with him, he was like, well, you know, obviously the durability is a concern being right next to the ocean. And, and I was like, well, we just finished a job doing the facade of Clifton's downtown. And that's. You know, and he was like, okay, I'm going to go by and take a look. And he went by and took a look. And we talked more about that. And he was like, okay, you, I, you kind of proved yourself. I know you're going to be good to do this. So I don't have to worry. So that was good.

Brynn Gelbard: I mean, I think we were always like, we'll take on any surface that will stay still long enough for us to do our thing. I think we were always happy to kind of, you know, just bite the bullet and figure it out. And I think part of that ballsyness is the two of us working together and egging each other on constantly. 

Amy Devers: What does that mean though? Are you sometimes in physically precarious situations or do you sometimes have to, I don't know, rigging to hang on the side of a building?

Lisa Donohoe: We said yes to our first five story mural, and we were both terrified of heights, and I was like, no, we can do it, we can do it, and then on the day we went up, when they put the scaffolding in to test it, there had been, there was like steps built to the side of the building, so it kind [00:37:00] of nudged the scaffolding out slightly, so on the first floor, it was maybe, you know, six or seven inches away from the building, but when you get up to the fifth floor, it was like 18 inches, oh my god, and so I, I, We went home that day and I was like, I'm going to have to call the client and say, we can't do the five stories that we just, we just don't have the nerve.

And then the pattern that we were doing was our, we are the hearts pattern. And it's about love being the building block of life. And if you use love as your building blocks, how your life can change and grow and evolve. And we were doing in this massive surface. And so even though we were afraid, we thought, okay, our fear, our desire to put that love out into the world is greater than the fear of heights.

And so it wasn't that much greater. It was only about that much greater, but still it was enough. And we just thought, no, we have this opportunity. We have to do it. 

Amy Devers: That's a beautiful story. Yeah. If love is the building blocks of life, then fear doesn't really win. It can still show up. 

Brynn Gelbard: That's what we stand for right there.

Amy Devers: You, you both are, you're an inspiration. Well, it does sound like this work is constantly challenging you in, in ways to continue growing and evolving. 

Brynn Gelbard: It is really, and a couple of years ago, we did a project in San Francisco for the designer, Nicole Hollis, who to us is exemplary in our field for a team that is so supportive and so knowledgeable and so empowering of us as artists, but, you know, and all the artists that we know who get to work with that team and, you know, Nicole's like, you, you guys are the experts. You tell me. I think that experience working on that historical mansion project for her. It redefined our sense of selves as artists, first and foremost. You know, when we finished that project, it became not, what else are we necessarily going to do in our creative realm of interior design and architecture? But it really, although we always did murals, it really became like, we could put our patterns on any surface. We could think in so many new ways. And so, We started taking the basic step of, you know, wallpaper and stuff to make our work more available to people. But then we were like, how else can we create, what else can we do?

Amy Devers: Isn't that amazing when you have somebody who believes in you enough that they're going to invest in you, it's like wind in your sails. It really does lift the whole project up. And I'm excited to hear you've, it also changed the way you thought of yourselves in terms of. your creative output. You know, those wall coverings are, they're exciting because it feels a little more like accessible.And it also feels like an offering, like it's a way of giving your gift to more people. 

Brynn Gelbard: We hear a lot from clients, whether it be the client whose ceiling that we did, 2, 000 hour long, gold leaf, fluorescent and acrylic paint, hand, all done by hand, to clients who have wallpaper, how uplifting the patterns are and the designs are to be around. Every time we do public art, people come out of the woodwork to tell us, Oh my God, I love seeing this. I just love it.

Lisa Donohoe: I live across the street. As soon as you put the gold on, I was just like so happy looking out my window and they come by every day to give me their opinion on, um, you know, how you're doing.

Brynn Gelbard: You know, and the purpose for us is like, when we hear that our stuff is uplifting, again, coming back to this place of being around people from all walks of life and finding joy together, finding common ground. Ultimately, our goal is to create these places, spaces, whatnot, that bring people from all walks of life together and, and have them be safe, so humbled or so uplifted that they reconnect with their sense of joy or sense of hope or sense of the sacred and life becomes better hopeful all those things you know so for us it really is about having stuff that can be accessible. 

Lisa Donohoe: But also the the patterns for the wallpaper It's kind of the first time where we did things just for ourselves. We weren't designing within any architectural constraints or any, within any designer's um, aesthetic or any client's needs. It was just us. ourselves. And so that was really exciting. And we just kind of let ourselves go a bit wild with that. And that was a lot of fun. And it's interesting, like, if we're looking at our peacock design, our peacock nouveau, like I look at that and I can see like elements of the book of cows, like to go way back when I started out. And I'm just like, Oh, wow. It wasn't consciously put in there, but When it was printed, when the, when we went to the printer the first time to see them, and I was like, Oh my God, it feels a bit like the Book of Kells. And it just was just like a full circle moment for me personally. 

Amy Devers: I believe it. And when Brynn was describing this way of sharing the uplifting with as many people as possible, I was taken back to that moment when you saw the Book of Kells and you had that transformational moment. And like, this is your way to transmit this. And, I mean, I think about the power of that book from, you said, how many years old was it? I think it was around 800. 800? Yeah, that's one book, but so much care was put into it that it's been preserved and regarded with reverence. And that is imprinted on your psyche. And this is the modern manifestation of wanting people to have a similar feeling.

That makes me feel something that that's, that's powerful. I do think we do art and design a disservice when we forget the sacred and the reverent. Part of it when, when the care and craft is baked into it and it's when it's in the DNA of it, it has the power to exude that and to influence people's energy and to do that in a positive way or provocative way even to help shift perspective is, it's important, it's meaningful, it's real, and I hope that You get to savor this aspect of your life and feel good and sleep well at night.

There's a lot of joy I'm hearing, and I appreciate it's labor still. It's a lot, a lot of labor. So that comes with a lot of like, it's hard on your body, I'm sure. It's a lot of research. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. It does feel like it's, you know, that you're all, you're both like very. committed to the calling at this growth edge that you're at right now?

Like, what's the, what's the pain? Where do you leaning into that needs to be the knot that needs to be worked out? 

Brynn Gelbard: I think the pain is very often having to like, make people unlearn what they've learned on social media. Oh, You know, and we see things where it's like, Oh, we were interviewed for an article once about someone painting tiles. And we were like, we won't answer your question because what you're asking is not possible. And we as artists, we guarantee our work. And so we're going to say no, if, if adhesion is an issue, you know, you cannot paint a toilet seat, no matter what toilet seats, nothing will stick to them. You know what I mean?

And I think one of the greatest pains beside the physical pain of looking up, looking down, bending over real, I mean, my hands sometimes are like, So tired, but sometimes that pain is when you're looking on Instagram and you're looking at an influencer with hundreds of thousands of followers talking about, look what I did today and you're like, no, you did not.

Like, that's not possible. You know what I mean? And so it's, it's that pain of, of letting it be, it's that pain of seeing it and the lesson of letting it be. You know, and, and staying focused on the authenticity and the legitimacy of what we do, you know, it's the pain of say, a interior designer who's been a production designer all along who asks us to do something.

And we're like, It's not possible. And that production designer turned interior designer says, but in this Chris Brown video I shot, and it's like, you're shooting a video for a set that lasts a day. And then you're asking about a commercial space. You know what I mean? So a lot of the time it's like, the pain is kind of the frustration when people won't communicate because all that we need in order to do our best work is people who are like, I'm down to talk and communicate.

Amy Devers: Yeah. 

Brynn Gelbard: Whether it be about budget or scope or whatnot, you know, we're these people who are, we're like an ultimate treasure chest. We'll custom color, we'll work for a budget, we'll scale, we'll work with different materials. And the pain, I think, ultimately is how many people are afraid to have a conversation and figure it out. And I think that's just a general thing in society right now that we're seeing manifest a lot of times, but in our little world here, It's just, you know, when people are willing to have a conversation, there's so much that can be figured out. 

Amy Devers: Well, in a conversation where they're willing to learn, and maybe consider making adjustments to their design or their vision, In [00:48:00] the process with more information.

Lisa Donohoe: Yeah. And I think it working with Nicole, I think and her team, they were so kind of secure in what they do, what they do well, that they were well able to have the conversations, not just with us, but with all of the other creatives on the job. Cause we worked on that project for like, eight and a half months.

So we heard all the conversations with the other creatives, with the woodworkers, the tile guys, stone people. And the conversation was always, yeah, I know this was the plan, but it would look better if we did it this way. And they were totally open to hearing that. Um, or what would you suggest in your skill set with your knowledge?

And it's just that, It always ends up with the best result because they were able to have those conversations secure enough to be like, okay, I don't know everything. This is your area of expertise. Talk to me and I'll listen and we'll make a decision, you know, and it was just so inspiring. It was only kind of when we were around that,you kind of realize like, oh yeah, a lot of other projects are not like that. And that, how much of a shame that is because it always improves the final result. 

Amy Devers: It does. It does. And I think it also does wonders for dissolving this imaginary silo or this imaginary boundary between creatives and tradespeople, which I think is completely doing a disservice to all of the whole built world.

Brynn Gelbard: Majorly. To be honest, so much of the emphasis now is placed on the designer. You know, I don't want to take away from how they are choreographing and taking all these elements and putting them together, but there are people right now who are doing work that is so unbelievable and their skill sets are mind boggling and they have studied for years and they have learned from masters and That is something that just doesn't [00:50:00] always get the credence.Like people in our industry are like, want to hide their resources.

Amy Devers: Yeah, I don't think that's healthy for the overall ecosystem of the industry. And I don't think that elevates other people's game. And I think I'm with you there. I, I find that really. reprehensible. 

Brynn Gelbard: It's like if a film credit came up and it was like the director and the cinematographer and that's it. You know what I mean? But all these other people have brought their real unbelievable expertise to the table and that project wouldn't be that project without it. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I will say like those designers and design photographers who are willing to share. The credit for what they created tend to be the most knowledgeable, you know, they tend to be the most rooted in their knowledge.

Amy Devers: That makes perfect sense. And I do think that I feel you on the pain of having to reeducate people after they've been fed like sort of inaccurate information on social media, which always makes it seem like things are doable that are not because they don't investigate the durability or the adhesion quality. I think conversations like this are the counterbalance. I like to think that we're putting out into the world a kind of antidote to that kind of media. 

Brynn Gelbard: You are. 

Amy Devers: I hope. 

Brynn Gelbard: I mean, I think for, for us and for all artists, just recognizing that the pains are the growth. And, you know, I think one of the things about us that we're so lucky is that we have each other to kind of push each other and, and support one another. And I think as a result of having that, we also have a circle of people who know that they can always come to us. because being an artist, even if you work on your own, it's still, you need other people to kind of go back and forth with, even if it's just about the loneliness of working on a project for X amount of time or the frustration, you know, I think that's the most important thing is having a network of people who support one another.

And who understand that there's enough success for everyone. You know, we're all doing different stuff. We're all doing unique stuff. And so really, and truly a project that's really meant for you and you alone is not going to pass you by. And just embracing the community of it. 

Amy Devers: Have you been able to build, I mean, you spoke of the community that you had in San Francisco during the wild years and how important that was to your own, like individual, identity and development and freedom and igniting your heart. Have you been able to build the same necessary community in the artistic space? Or is it still in the making? 

Brynn Gelbard: I do think that there's a community of people within the design world in LA. I think it's been less since the pandemic. I don't think it's really come back. And I, I also think that there's, not enough of like a overarching infrastructure bringing people together this all being said I think we are really Doing more of the public art and doing more of the art side of things and you know So being around different artists lately and seeing people just staunchly producing work, you know, and getting work out there has been so inspiring.

We had the amazing fortune this summer of becoming friends with this artist, Zanele Muholi, and just seeing them work and seeing them create and seeing their, their persistence at putting out work. 

Amy Devers: Yeah. 

Brynn Gelbard: We just got back from the Royal Wedding in Norway and meeting other artists who are just Just putting out work and just putting it out and just doing it for the love of it.

It's just, it's something that I think Lisa and I did so much in the beginning and then got so wrapped up in our client work that we stopped making work. art for the joy of it. And we're just about to move to a new space in the arts district. And we're so excited. And we're just honestly, so excited to go [00:55:00] creatively, like unhinged.

I can't wait just to Get back to the pure joy of it and take all these lessons that we've discussed now that we've learned over the last few years. And, you know, we're putting out new wallpaper, we're putting out new fabrics, we're putting our, you know, designs on anything. And so I think just Just going for it and having that community to encourage you, you know, just being around, you know, people who understand we're not just creating shapes and putting them together for the sake of it.

We're not working with colors and light because we like it aesthetically. It's all very intentional, and there's a reason that it makes people feel good, and it's because that's the energy that we put into the work intentionally. And when people are specific with us about what they want in the work, then that gives us all the more opportunity to create even more intentionally.

And often when we are creating for people, just channeling their essence We've had multiple experiences where people have been shocked by the stuff that we've generated, that stuff that they've been thinking about that we would have had no way of knowing. Yeah, and there's specific stories about that.

You know, I think we were doing a project for House of Honey once, who is another designer who's just kind of doing things differently, doing beautiful work and very supportive of us. It's a really understanding of what we bring to the table and, um, one of her clients wanted a snake mural across her ceiling.

Lisa Donohoe: And as we sat down to do the sketches or to kind of get in the, get in the mood to start creating, it was like, we've never done a snake mural. We don't really do representational murals. designs that often, sometimes. I came up with this idea of this two headed snake, but it wasn't like, it was like a head at each end of the snake. I don't know where it came from, it was just like, okay, just sketching it out. And then I did some research and it was like, oh, it was a, cause I wanted to make sure it wasn't like a bad omen or something. And so I was doing research and it was like, oh, is it in ancient times, it was known as a protective talisman for pregnant women.

And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And then when we presented the design to House of Honey, they were like, and we mentioned that, and she was like, we didn't tell you the client was pregnant. And she was like eight and a half months pregnant. And we were like, okay, well.

Brynn Gelbard: And then it was really interesting because we were doing this job and we decided as a gift, cause we really liked the client. She was very cool. And we met her mother and her husband or partner. I don't remember. Um, they were just so cool. So we decided as a gift to gold leaf the eyes. the both sets of eyes as a gift, as a wish for her to have like golden vision, clarity of vision as she's a writer.

And we didn't tell anyone until the day that we presented it. And when we were leaving the client who was like literally about to pop, she started crying and she pulled, she was covered in tattoos. And she pulled up her arm and she had a snake on her arm. And she's like, you see the kind of sparkle in the eye.

She's like the sparkle in the eyes of the snake was because they were supposed to be like gold for golden vision. Just like, exactly like you said. And she was like, I literally can't believe you did that and said that. So things like that happen pretty often. And so when we have the opportunity to really, Communicate with designers and communicate with clients. There's so much magic that's possible beyond just getting something that's And we always let that magic in. 

Amy Devers: That is also real artistry. Is knowing that magic is afoot and leaving the door open for it. And then allowing it to come through you without resistance or suspicion, but kind of just trusting the magic. That's really powerful and has the power, I think, to be a supportive energy in the world to the clients, but also therapeutic, um, and a joyful one. I have so enjoyed talking to both of you. You are magic beings. And I really love what you do, and I appreciate you sharing your stories, and you're really, your, your work is so technically sound, but also it's alchemy in some ways, you know? And That's really beautiful. 

Lisa Donohoe: Thank you so much for having us on, taking the time, asking such thoughtful questions, and really, it's just been amazing. 

Amy Devers: It's been my absolute pleasure. Hey, thanks so much for listening. For a transcript of this episode and more about Lisa and Brynn, including links and images of their work, head to our website. Cleverpodcast. com. While you're there, check out our resources page for books, info, and special offers from our guests, partners, and sponsors, and sign up for our free sub stack newsletter, which includes news announcements and a bonus Q and a from our guests. If you like clever, we could really use your support. You can share Clevver with your friends, leave us a five star rating or a kind review, support our sponsors, and definitely hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app so that our new episodes will turn up in your feed. We love to hear from you on LinkedIn, Instagram, and X. You can find us Us at Clever Podcast, and you can find me at Amy Devers. Clever is hosted and produced by me, Amy Devers, with editing by Mark Zurowinski, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anoushka Stefan, and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is a proud member of the Surround Podcast Network. Visit surroundpodcasts. com to discover more of the architecture and design industry's premier shows.

Brynn Gelbard: Creative work, It's really like the partying of the work world, I think.

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Lisa on a ladder doing touch ups. Acrylic and fluorescent paints, 22 and 23 kt gold leaf, and custom textured plaster on 26 individual panels completed in our studio in LA in the height of the pandemic and then shipped to SF for installation by the contractor.

Photo: Brynn Gelbard, Custom Surface Design: Londubh Studio, Interior Design: Nicole Hollis

Dressing Room 

Photo: Douglas Friedman, Custom Surface Design: Londubh Studio, Interior Design: Nicole Hollis

Love Mural - For Tom’s Shoe’s Headquarters - Along with several other muralists, we were commissioned to do this mural for them - one of our favorite themes to create around is love. We want to create moments that inspire presence and kindness.  Photo: Brynn Gelbard

Dressing Room, fluorescent paint detail 

Photo: Douglas Friedman, Custom Surface Design: Londubh Studio, Interior Design: Nicole Hollis

SF Painted Floor - Paint and glaze on wood, custom designed for the space by Londubh Studio for Nicole Hollis. Photo: Brynn Gelbard

We are the Hearts Mural - Say yes to love, this features our we are the hearts pattern that is made up of hearts symbolizing the architectural building blocks of life.   Photo: Sarina Saletta

Disco Biscuit - The Row - we love to incorporate metal leaf into our murals to heighten their interactivity with light which = magic.  Designed for and photographed by Corina Lash

Working on Golden Globes Elevator Set - Putting the finishing touches on the custom tinted and textured plaster and gold leaf 2020 Golden Globes Elevator Sets. Photo: Brynn Gelbard, Custom Surface Design: Londubh Studio for Nicole Hollis

Peacock Nouveau wallcovering for Private Client.   

Photo: Rodin Eckenroth

RedRoom Doors, details - This detailing was all about the music focus of this room, as well as the SF hippie and visual psychedelia style.  Full disclosure, those corner motifs are styled off of vintage acid tabs, and of course we made one with our logo on it. Photo: Brynn Gelbard, Custom Surface Design: Londubh Studio for Nicole Hollis

Dapper Slappers - A portrait from earlier on… Photo: Londubh Studio

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Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Mark Zurawinski, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.

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