Ep. 45: Mary Ping
Fashion designer Mary Ping was influenced at a young age by a stylish grandmother who taught her to sew. Always knowing she’d one day run her own label, she studied art at Vassar and worked in east London’s scene before founding her conceptual line, Slow and Steady Wins the Race, a living archive of wardrobe classics, reexamined. Not one to participate on the hamster wheel of trends, she prefers injecting social commentary and sartorial wit into her work. Plus, her photographic memory weirds people out.
Portrait by Joyce Ravid
What is your earliest memory?
My actual earliest memory, no joke, is watching my mom as she fed me formula and I remember the warm lighting and the emerald green chair. I’m sure this is stuck in the back of the filing cabinet because I recall her setting the bottle down and me staring at it and not being able to communicate that I was not finished!!
Mary and her grandmother
How do you feel about democratic design?
I embrace it 1000%. Paola Antonelli’s quote “Elegance in objects is everybody’s right and it shouldn’t cost more than ugliness” is printed and pasted on my studio wall.
What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?
From my art advisor in college, Harry Roseman, “Ask yourself questions that are smarter than you are and then find the answers to them.”
How do you record your ideas?
That is definitely a secret.
What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?
Interesting and classic corduroy has been catching my eye lately.
What book is on your nightstand?
This is a heavy one. My uncle Andrew Sheng was one of the first to write about the 2008 crash and his book: From Asian to global financial crisis: an Asian regulator's view of unfettered finance in the 1990s and 2000s, Cambridge University Press is on my nightstand. I’m hoping it will absorb through osmosis.
Why is authenticity in design important?
Authenticity has the power to convince and make people believe, that is why it is so important. It is inherent and indescribable and you realize you begin to carry it with you.
Favorite restaurant in your city?
Shopsin’s in the Essex Market—it is like family.
What might we find on your desk right now?
A cracked wax prototype for a minaudiere clutch. Stay tuned.
Who do you look up to and why?
I am beyond grateful for being able to count many mentors in my life. In particular there are the people who are in their 90’s and 100’s at this point, who are lucid and they are living time capsules.
What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?
There are many which we dig and dive deep into. If I had to choose one, then it will be Metamorphosis which is on display right now at The Museum of Modern Art. The experience of working with artisans in a 13th century village outside of Rome is something I really wish I could do everyday and a constant reminder of why I do what I do in the first place.
What are the last five songs you listened to?
Attitude - Bad Brains
Big Wheel - Cass McCombs
Cosmic Charlie - Aoxmoxoa
When the Levee Breaks - Led Zeppelin
Can’t Help Falling in Love - Dead Moon
TRANSCRIPT
Mary Ping: My name is Mary Ping, uh, I’m based in New York City, in Manhattan, uh, our studio is on Twenty Fifth Street, in Chelsea and currently my time is completely occupied by designing under Slow and Steady Wins the Race which is a studio that is primarily clothing based, but I like to think of it as a living archive of wardrobe classics.
Amy Devers: So, let’s start at the very beginning. Where were you born, where did you grow up? What was your like family dynamic like and what kind of a kid was little Mary Ping?
MP: [Laughter], Not that different than now [laughter]. My mom likes to say she gave birth to a 30 year old [laughter]. I was born in New York on Queens Boulevard, at Saint John’s Hospital, I have a lot of fond memories of Sixty Sixth Street in particular because that’s where the opening sequence of Annie Hall takes place.
AD: Hmm.
MP: A lot of that is how I associate New York but then we moved to Westchester for total suburban, life and summer times and all that -
AD: How old were you when you moved to Westchester?
MP: 10.
AD: Okay.
MP: So city life to suburban life, now, as an adult looking back was actually a pretty good thing in terms of a balance my grandmother spent a lot of time with us, my sister and I, when we were young, just kind of helping to take care of us and so she was a huge influence, aesthetically.
She taught me how to sew, I learned starting at the age of four and I asked for my first sewing machine like my first real adult kind of sewing machine, when I was nine all the sort of like techniques, that I know about, I have, to kind of attribute to her and she really taught me how to look at things, and also just how to kind of differentiate like things in terms of quality.
MP: Yeah, and she had great style too.
AD: Was your grandmother also a New York native?
MP: She’s not, but she moved here from Hong Kong, I wanna say in the early 70’s she was living in Tribeca, all my, you know, old photos of her, really stick in my memory because she had like really great understated style, but also in her later years, very like, just, the easiest way to describe it is very like Catherine Hepburn - Because of the uniform always with the button down, men’s pants, New Balance sneakers, but then like you know, some crazy heirloom piece of jewelry from like the 1920’s, in Shanghai that, you know, she had
AD: Yeah.
MP: It’s a good mix, it has to be like really, really important or like interesting for me to actually want to buy something because I know how to make stuff.
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: It was similar with her, she would always be able to figure out how to make something and then decide, well if I know how to make it, then you know, I don’t really need to buy it, it’s funny, rarely do you ever get like a little kid actually interested in like how a seam is put together or like the inside of a garment, you know?
AD: What did you enjoy about the construction of garments? Did you like, did you like the physical process of making things and patterning things
MP: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
AD: Okay, and were your parents like supportive of this, fashion hobby, I guess?
MP: Yeah, I mean they still think of it as kind of a hobby [Laugher].
AD: Oh!
MP: Um, I’m, I’m only half joking but -
AD: Okay.
MP: They were always supportive in the sense that like if she wants a sewing machine we’ll get her a sewing machine, but there was definitely just like along the way peppered with [0.15.00] oh, are you gonna, maybe think about medical school or [laughter] my mom is a little bit more old fashioned in the sense that she really takes pride in like academia and you know, corporation or institutional work, it was fine to be artistic and I have to credit her for really taking us to museums growing up and to listen to music and just getting like very, culturally aware when we were young.
AD: She didn’t know that exposing you to all that culture was gonna lead you away from a safe and secure profession in the sciences [laughter].
MP: She wasn’t so concerned if we didn’t become you know, doctors or what-not, but definitely with my dad it was more of like you know, a practical concern.
AD: Hmm-mm, you studied studio art at Vassar, correct?
MP: Yes.
AD: Okay, so did you have to convince your parents that you wanted to go to art school and -
MP: No, because they actually think of Vassar as a very prestigious like - girls school, like, oh, well Jacqueline Kennedy went there, so that’s fine, you know [laughter].
AD: Okay. Well, what were the college years like for you? I mean did you feel like you had found your thing?
MP: Yeah, it was great, no, it really was. I think it was crucial to do four years of something that wasn’t fashion related because I think when I attack something that is like, quote, unquote ‘fashion related now’ it has a different point of view I do see, design as having to have a language that encompasses a lot of different fields.
I think at that age, from like 18 to 22, now I know why it was so important for like my teachers to kind of drill into me that like you can’t be so, narrow, so early on, good to open up your point of view then do the analysis and draw the conclusions and then, you know, dig deep and then come out of it.
JD: Did you knowwhen you were studying art that you were somehow going to, you know, graduate and then start a fashion line right away and, and you knew that that was the path you were gonna take or did you end up taking more fashion classes and then kind of decide like, okay, I definitely know that I wanna do this?
MP: No, I knew since I was four so -
AD: Okay. [Laughter]
MP: Yeah, I, I don’t know why, like I never strayed from that path.
AD: That’s interesting, so you took the studio art classes at Vassar as a way of opening up, your field of study, your field of investigation, knowing that you were gonna apply it to fashion in the end.
MP: Yeah, I think like in, it, it just was the closest thing that I felt um, yeah, that, that I felt was, I was most akin to anyway, so, but the good thing about Vassar was that it was a, they had a different breakdown of, you know, the curriculum requirements -
JD: Hmm-mm.
MP: So um, you know, so a certain percentage had to be um, the art history and certain percentage had to be something outside of that and a certain percentage had to be like science. So, um, and then there were always, you know, freshman year there are always the foundation kinda introductory courses too, as well. So, um, so that was, you know, that was always great because I also just get, I, I think I’ve, you know, my attention span wouldn’t be as activated or agile if, if I had to just kinda drill home um, something um, you know, just kind of tunnel vision. I, I can’t, and, I don’t think I can really do that, um -
J So, when you graduated, did you just start your line, like right there or did you do any kind of internship or get any industry experience and then take the leap?
MP: Oh, well, throughout the four years at Vassar I would, I would try to do internship.
AD: Okay.
MP: Um, or I did do internships and then uh, graduating, um, I enrolled in London College of Fashion because that was also around the time that you know, the focus was really on, like London and -
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: The um, you know, somehow they were just really, like, spit balling, like Alexander McQueen and John Galliano and like this whole like, you know, w-; it’s one singular kinda graduating class that seemed to be followed by another, like graduating class of like these, you know, um, people that everyone was, you know, watching. So, um -
AD: Around what year was this?
MP: This was 2001.
AD: Okay, yeah.
MP: Um, so I think the few years leading up to 2001 were huge you know, because that was the sort of early establishment of like McQueen, Galliano, Stella McCartney um -
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: And that they had like basically had just graduated, like you know, four or five years before that. Um, you know, from, and then, and then, you know, Royal College was also putting out um, different designers too, so it was like London around that time was really exciting for that and so um, then [0.25.00], so I went and then like I realized like I had just the difference between what I was sort of getting as an education from Vassar was way different than um, than being in London. So, um, were they really encouraged in what they call independent study, so, um, so I realized that like the, you know, the success of all those students was really because they were being drilled to kind of um, figure it out on their own.
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: Um, you know, ver-; versus like you know, Vassar is really used to like after a class you know, um, the professors are always available to, to speak and discuss and, you know, if we had other ideas or we needed to like talk through a paper, um, or a draft, you know, you would just schedule an appointment and go in before it was due, you know, to work on it. So the conversation was always open and that was the opposite, um, in London, but it was fine because I think it, it was actually that in itself was a really good learning experience because I had to be, I just needed a break from you know, 22 years of like the same city, basically and then um, and then just kind of being completely on my own.
Um, in a, in a different country and in the, I would up just, you know, I, I always learn the most on work experiences, so um, so I did, I did a studio, um, placement, apprenticeship with like, with uh, Robert Cary-Williams, while I was in London.
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: And, and that was great because you really got, you know, it was a small scale operation. Um, at the time he was sort of like the next wave of the Galliano and the McQueen and what-not and so, so it was still that same energy where it was um, putting a collection together, you know, some of it was like built by hand and some of it was really like couture techniques and, and just a little bit of like everyone coming together um, you know, to put out this very, very labor intensive collection actually and then, but it’d still have like the trappings of London circa 2001 because like you know, Anita Pallenberg was one of his models.
AD: Hmm-mm.
MP: And London was still, like East London was really rough around the edges still and like where he was based was even further out near the Thames like, and so you know, there, it was still like that grit, but then he had so much attention on him and his, you know, and his work and every, you know, every show was like kind of a, a big um, spectacle, like production, you know, there was always something crazy going on with the shoes or something crazy going on with like the hair [laughter] and makeup, you know.
And, but, they, you know, it all worked and it came together and it’s, you know, it’s just like you, you know, the idea, like I just moved apartments and I was cleaning, having to clean out the old apartment and, you know, first um, and then kinda purging and cleaning and, and I like found all my archives from, from 2001 in London and including this um, kind of like a souvenir top. We’d made two or three, we, we just started like, it was just kinda like literally tossed at the table to us, when we were just one day in the studio there and then, then he like pulled me and like one other student aside and he’s like: Oh you know, like I um, you know, actually I think I need just you guys to work on it and you need to work on it on the, you know, the mannequin.
And I was like okay, so we’re just, and then he would just direct us, like oh, you know, has to get, you have to get it crazier looking and do this to it and do this to it and we’re like okay, this is so, what is this and then, and then um, and he’s like, oh, I’ll make a duplicate just in case, you know, if it doesn’t work out, we’re okay, and, and then he comes by and everyone else has left the studio and we’re still kinda working on it and he’s like: Oh, I just wanna let you guys know this is a special piece for Kate Moss and I didn’t, you know, and I just wanted you guys to work on it.
AD: Oh, that’s exciting.
MP: And then it was a little, and then there was a little bit like, okay, now we can’t mess up [laughter] you know.
AD: Yeah, the pressure is on.
MP: So, yeah, and then um, and then yeah, and then so she kept one and then he let us keep the duplicate for you know, just like, as a memento [0.30.00] um.
AD: So, so -
MP: And -
AD: So, that’s a really like, that sounds like a profound kind of work experience, is, is that something that, I don’t know helped you feel like you were primed and ready to start your own line because shortly after London you came back to New York and started the Mary Ping collection and then after that your conceptual line, which is Slow and Steady Wins the Race and you know, with the line, the conceptual line, you’re challenging a lot of fashion world assumpt-; assumptions. You’re re-examining classics, yes and –
MP: Uh, hm.
AD: And you’ve, I’ve, I’ve read you’ve directed your s-; your s-; energy sort of towards reformatting the existing fashion space, so -
MP: Yeah, I, I think um, well that’s all correct um, but I, I would say like um, working in the studio with Robert Carey-Williams was also just in the, you know, kind of, um, another layer of a learning experience. Um, -
AD: Sure, but, let’s, but bring down the –
MP: You know the other, you know, internships and stuff.
AD: Oh sure, sure got it. I just want to try and move this story forward and if you can talk to us, like what was that time for you like when you launched both collections, or when you started to, to really put a conceptual line out there? That’s kind of a, that’s a gutsy thing to do. So, what was that like?
MP: Um, it was, it didn’t, you know honestly, i-; it was very um, it was very um, organic. I mean I kind of can’t think of another word um, other than that. It just kind of fell into place. It w-; uh, there were ideas that were, that uh, were, that were already kind of percolating in my head um, -
AD: Can you -?
MP: For a long time and -
AD: Sure, can you tell our listeners, like in a nutshell what Slow and Steady Wins the Race is?
MP: Oh, um, okay so Slow and Steady Wins the Race is a collection um, that is als-; I would say it’s a collection of conceptual classics.
AD: Okay.
MP: Um, i-; it is also a living archive that deals with um, the idea of the everyday wardrobe and a lot of it -
AD: Which I think is so fascinating.
MP: It is, oh -
AD: It’s awesome.
MP: Oh [laughter]. Um, a lot of it is focused on kind of um, reinterpreting the current system from a, you know from an anthropological place. Uh, it is um, which is to say that like one day we’ll, we’ll come up with a collection that, you know, talks about, I mean we already have, all right. We did a collection that talks about luxury um, and so there’s always like a, a defining message and then just kind of like creating um, a small number of pieces that describe that message.
AD: S-; -
MP: And um, but you know the -
AD: So, as an example, the, the, the collection that talks about luxury, was that the bag collection?
MP: It’s not.
AD: Oh.
MP: It’s actually um, it’s a tier, the bag collection is just, it just starts out as bag.
AD: Okay.
MP: And then um, the luxury collection is um, it’s wha-; it’s, it’s a, a tiered collection, so -
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: So it, w-; f-; um, it is like a s-; set number of objects and they’re priced at a thousand Dollars and that was sort of like a different um addition to what we were normally doing because we were, because I was, when I started out I wanted just kind of more of like a symbolic amount, so I asked, I was really strict on having everything be a hundred Dollars.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: Because it’s more representational, it wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t really, when I started it was an idea, it wasn’t about the, building a business and if anything like, more so because I wasn’t um, tied to that.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: It w-; it gave me more of freedom to play around with, even just commenting you know, and kind of um, putting, putting a mirror up to the actual business itself, you know and like supply and demand and like limited editions versus mass market or whate-; or whatnot. So, the, it just touched on a lot of these um, practices that are present, you know, in the industry, in the contemporary industry um, and, but it was, you know, that’s the sort of structure um, and the framework I had to k-; work around. Um, and so luxury was just easy to do kind of, as a steppingstone, just had to comment about [0.35.00] like why things are really expensive.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: Um in, in the industry itself and then so we started as like a, a tier of a thousand Dollars and there was like, we were hoping to build it up to like, you know, at some point I will, I will add to that layer and do like you know, a ten thousand Dollar series and, and you know, but it’s all written, you know, in, in the sort of description of the collection itself. Um, and then, you know, like a, another example is a white T-shirt where the, it’s a s-; like such a familiar s-; staple.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: Um, modern contemporary staple.
AD: Yeah.
MP: Uh, the white pocket tee, the, and you, and it doesn’t, it hasn’t really changed all that much since um, since we first really [inaudible] it, you know, like in probably like the thirties or um, maybe more so in the fifties. You know, I always think of Jane Seymour or Marlon Brando in the, in the white T-shirt and um, and so for that collection I thought, well you know ,there’s something interesting that happens the minute you change the fabrication, like it’s still white.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: But it’s, you know, ten options where it’s po-; it’s proposed in uh, white leather, white lace, you know ,white silk uh, white sheer mesh, you know, just the opacity and the weight and -
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: The sort of textures and really changes um, the materiality uh, of you know, changes -
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: what’s so nice is that main idea of that collection is not physically altering the form.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: Like keeping the form intact and then um, and just changing one thing about it really kinda transforms and still speaks to kind of the, you know mai-; the sort of central notion of what you know, what the white T-shirt is,
JD: you have a piece that’s included in the upcoming MOMA item show, is that correct? Which piece is, is included.
MP: Yeah. So, the piece um, is uh, called “Metamorphosis” um, and it’s an installation that we did originally commissioned by Fondation Galeries Lafayette, which is the art foundation branch of Galeries Lafayette, the department store family.
JD: Uh, hm.
MP: In France and so this piece was ori-; it’s jar-; um, it was shown Octo-; in October of last year and um, it is um, I mean just descriptively it’s, it’s ten bags and they are leather bags and they start um, from one to ten and they kind of speak to the fam-; they speak to this sort of um, existing idea of what luxury bags and how we recognize them -
JD: Uh, hm.
MP: Um, and then they kind of increasingly um, mutate and become these weird Frankenstein-like uh, synthesis of one another and like they kinda transform and then, you know, they all kind of change into like a final bag and a lot of that was also speaking to um, production um, and how objects have a language with each other, how objects have their own system, how commerce and consumption and wh-; what the, you know, what customers want and desire and demand, also how that changes the flow of production as well, so -
JD: Oh, that’s fascinating.
AD: Yeah.
MP: And [laughter]
JD: That’s pretty heavy [laughter].
MP: it feels a little bit like um, coming off the assembly line.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: Um, and you get to see um, the transition of the bags from start to finish, um, and the, but what’s also important to know is that they’re all handmade and they were all made by these artisans in um, just uh, [0.40.00] 90 minutes outside of Rome in this medieval town called Valentano that also has in, in its roots, specifically handbag making -
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: History and knowledge and they’re trying to really um, promote and um, preserve the um, the richness of their, you know, knowledge base and their skillset.
AD: Hm.
MP: they’re called [Montenary?], um, so I loved working with them um, and they um, so that’s included in the um, ch-; MOMA show and I’m totally floored and totally honored
AD: Let’s talk about your creative process a bit. Um, you know, you’re, you’re putting all of your energy into this conceptual line that’s reexamining classics. what does your process start with, how do you conduct your investigations in your research, like what sticks in your brain and comes out the other side as an idea?
MP: in my dream world like I would have - A showroom space big enough where it looks like those giant reference libraries with the um, mechanical you know, stacks that could –
AD: I love it.
MP: Move back and forth [laughter].
AD: Right, the white T-shirt here.
MP: And you know I would just archive everything.
AD: These are bags, shoes, sunglasses.
MP: Yeah.
AD: White T-shirts. Yeah, I love it [laughter].
MP: Yeah, anyone who wanted to take a look at it could come take a look at it and, and, and so, it’s just like kind of how my brain works and a lot of that probably comes from my college days too, you know, like that’s when I spent the most time thinking about fashion as like a study. You know, like, you know with the, why and the how.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: you draw references from everywhere and, and then you can go look at like some Roman, you know, fragment of a statue and see the same kind of like shoe lacing. That’s happening now and then you’re like, “Oh yeah, that doesn’t really change” you know. Um, there’s cer-; there’s always like a nice story or a logic um, when during the research phase, so I, I always like discovering um, the genesis of, of things like that, but in terms of like collections, it’s, there’s just so much that we could always draw from, so these days it’s just really a deciding factor of, well do we want to make a, do I want to do something that’s kind of pretty relevant like or topical [0.45.00] now and only if it’s something that could be um, that can kind of stand on its own, like ten, 15 years from now um, as an idea. You know, as, so in terms of like, as a concept that would fit into um, the longer sort of history and so when you ask about inspiration sometimes it’s a range of like philosophical ideas or just like something behavioral, but before I kind of arrive at the final conclusion, I definitely sit down by myself just kind of like letting my brain consciously or subconsciously taking in and noticing what, like what people are, are wearing or what their habits are.
JD: Yeah, that actually brings me to a question about trends because when we think of fashion, we think of like trends and, and collections turning over rather quickly, but it sounds like you’re really focused on classics and examining those. So,, how do you handle dealing with trends?
MP: the reason I like classics so much is that it’s, it’s actually, really hard to be able to come up with something that’s gonna, you know, survive past ten years, used to think like ten years was also a really short amount of time, but you know, um, that’s uh, actually rapidly changing. with trends, it’s sort of, I mean I can, I can definitely think back to when I was a kid and really falling for, you know, what the latest you know, like jeans were, or what kids were wearing, or what I was wearing in like middle school or high school and you know, you, you kind of…
MP: My friends were in the same age group as me weget a total laugh out of this whole nineties revival too, but like nineties of like the things that we never [laughter] really want to like relive anyways [laughter]. You know, like that, that’s the time when you’re like, “Oh gosh, I’m like a sophmore in high school and like I’m disgruntled, I’ve got angst [laughter] and like, but these same kids are wearing, you know, that outfit that you would wear to the mall, you know, with uh, like the baby doll dress and cut-off jeans or whatnot and your like mini backpack
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: And it’s funny because, because when we were doing it, we kinda didn’t know what we were doing. it was more of this tribal kind of um, behavior where “it’s something thatwas born out of an activity of like hanging out and going, going to the mall or like meeting up with your friends and back then it was literally like calling on the phone, speaking to someone, setting a time and you knew you couldn’t stray from that because there was no other way to get a hold of them.
JD: -it’s funny because I’ve been looking at a lot of, of grunge [laughter] photos lately and like, l-; like Googling old Delia’s catalogues and like just trying to find like all the old stuff that I used to wear because you know, there is that element of nostalgia and there’s like a, a connection and an emotional um, feeling that you get when you see those kinds of things, but like when they do come back it’s bizarre and it does feel like, like a, like you’re disconnected from it even though it’s something that you feel like you’re supposed to be nostalgic about.
MP: You know, one of my favorite fashion history 101 comparison lessons is that like where various decades throughout time have been drawn from you know, elements of like previous decades the one thing that the sixties can kind of lay claim to, is that they um, they were a total reaction to the fifties and so in a way they weren’t drawing on any previous decade. you can argue like seventies has like 30 silhouettes.
JD: Well, I think too like, what you, what you said before about like a trend, like the grunge or you know, whatever the trends were in the nineties were, were part of, of actions and, and tribes and you know, a, a music culture or something like that. I think that’s really interesting and and when you talk about the trends kind of coming back um, that that’s like a facsimile of it, it’s not really the same thing because it’s not being manufactured from you know, a, a culture or, or a need or, you know what I mean, like there’s no -
MP: Yeah, it just mea-; -
AD: Rebellion [laughter], it’s just like a plaid shirt.
AD: Well, I think it’s less about what’s going on culturally and it’s less about rebellion and more about nostalgia.
JD: Hm.
MP: Yeah.
AD: definitely when it’s being regurgitated and thinking of all the times that’s happened, even the whole swing dancing phase was a nostalgic homage to the fifties that happened in the, nineties and uh, nostalgia is a way of rebelling or a way of being tribal.
MP: Uh, hm.
AD: But I don’t think it’s inherently as rebellious as co-opting the Doc Marten, which is an industrial work boot, as a way of sort of espousing your political views [laughter].
MP: Oh sure, yeah.
AD: you had started this whole thing talking about how one of the things you’re obsessed with is time and then Jamie talked about trends and uh, I know the way that Slow and Steady Wins the Race operates, is you put out collections but they’re not on a seasonal basis. They, everything you put out is sort of available forever. Like you said, “It’s a living archive” and so there’s a timelessness built into everything you design, which I think is fascinating because you’re not trying to feed off of this cycle of appetite um, necessarily?1
MP: No, I just like the process of working on an [1.00.00] object and working through an idea and so, at the end of the day it’s like, I, I have to kind of live up to my, whatever standards, I’m going to um, kinda surpass on my own um, I g-; and I cite this way a lot, which is um, my art advisor at Vassar, Harry Roseman, during one critique he kinda, he said something where the goal is always to ask questions that are smarter than yourself and then find the answers and that’s the, that’s one way to like kind of grow. so if you are able to pose questions that you don’t necessarily know the answers to yet and then you find the answers, then it feels like you ran a mile in like three minutes, so [laughter]I do think that the danger of w-; you know, designing something because all of a sudden it’s like that’s what you’re supposed to design and follow and, and whatnot, it’s n-; you’re not distilling um, you’re diluting, you know.
AD: I agree, yeah.
JD: Yeah.
MP: I mean I can chalk it up to my own neuroses, you know, too because it’s like I, I, I definitely wake up in the middle of the night thinking like, “Oh God, is that idea gonna hold, hold any ground, you know?
AD: Hm.
MP: like is that, is that idea strong enough basically, or am I doing it because it is topical and like it’s gonna, you know, what if it reads as like just following a trend or like -?
AD: Hm.
MP: Jumping on the bandwagon. I have to say, it’s just like, like Converse sneakers, like just the idea of Converse sneakers is like completely fascinating because they’ve been around for 102 years at this point or something like that and like it transcends like all ages.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: and something about the design you know, still works and Levis, you know, like blue jeans, like no matter what iteration at the end of the day, it’s still blue jeans and somehow you know, that’s not going away ever, and how it came about, it’s, it’s also just completely fascinating. The fact that it’s, you know, adopted worldwide and recognized as its own thing.
So, I just kinda stick to those principles,, and then just on top of that during my research phase, I always get a, again I get a kick out of like, you know, discovering something that um, that either people have forgotten about or maybe people didn’t know, or just like a fun fact You know like I think um, plaid, you know plaid was like originally Indonesian and not Scottish, and I just like, I, I really love, if I had um, you know, more time in the day of, uh, you know, I would definitely just spend that in the library reading about how you know, what’s, what’s the sort of visual language of like the different Indian tribes and what they wear. I’m still, have no idea of really like,why would the, they adopted this kinda dress to kinda identify themselves from another tribe and like you know, what did the different things mean in terms of like the hierarchy? You know there’s always like ranking or just like, and a lot of that really comes from using what they had you know, or reinterpreting like something that they, you know, gained, like material world.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: You know, just like the use of the material world into so that’s all very like, I would say like you know, just a study of humans in general, just like total anthropology. Um, and then just basically like how that gets reflected.
JD: Yeah.
MP: It’s been our daily habits um, now
JD: It is really fascinating.
MP: Yeah [laughter].
JD: [laughter]. I want to ask you though, for the first couple of years of Slow and Steady you, you were anonymous, so did you, was that like a planned anonymity and then at what point were you like, “Oh, I’m gonna come out and say, “Like this is me and I’m doing all of this?”
MP: Oh, it’s still really not by choice, the anonymity was very important in the beginning um, as a rule because that was direct commentary on how um, we had evolved. I mean, I would say, especially in like the American fashion industry, we had evolved into this obsession with knowing who the personality -
MP: Or the person, you know um, and then the sort of like transformation of like designer as like celebrity even.
JD: Uh, uh, hm.
MP: I would say, only American designers became household names worldwide. You know, rarely a, aside from, I don’t know, like Chanel or Yves St. Laurent there wasn’t this sort of um, the immediate goal even for designers to be a one name empire.
So, and like you know even just, I would even say that unless you followed fashion and you really liked fashion, um, that’s the only, when you kind of knew designers by name and you know, maybe what they looked like, but for the longest time I would kind of argue when people would say, how come, how come you insist on like anonymity?” You know, I would say like, “Well, you know Junya Watanabe is like one of the greatest designers living and you wouldn’t be able to kind of spot him down the street” whereas like you know, when I started for sure, you know, every, it was always like, “Oh, we need a portrait”.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: You know, like any interview you needed a portrait so as a reaction, the first one [inaudible 1.09.31], it was definitely, like everything was [inaudible] like everything was very, just kind of pushing the focus more towards the work and kind of remaining a little bit not like purposely mysterious in the sense that like it overrode the conversation -
JD: Uh, hm.
MP: But just kind of, just [1.10.00] being like, let’s all talk about the work, you know, let’s all refocus on the work.
AD: I think I get it.
MP: You’re wearing clothes, you’re not wearing me [laughter], so um -
AD: you’re anonymous to the point that the anonymity isn’t, isn’t the big deal, but you’re not -
MP: Yeah, exactly.
AD: Selling your personality as the brand, it’s the work that you want the attention to be focused on.
MP: Exactly. Yeah and then eventually just out of practicality I kind of let the guard down because it got a little um, challenging to constantly have to answer that question.
AD: Sure [laughter], that’s -
MP: And I’ll go harder to kind of -
AD: That’s fair.
MP: Flirt around when more, where certain people were just more bold and were like, “Oh” you know, and they would immediately call it out even without knowing the whole anonymity aspect.
AD: Oh, so you would have to like - You’ve be in the position where you’d either have to confirm or deny?
MP: Yeah, exactly. And it just didn’t feel consistent anymore.
AD: Gotcha.
MP: Like, it wasn’t um, it obviously wasn’t working as much as I wanted it to and then it just kind of starts, you know, circulating and then it’s harder to kind of retract or you know, it was harder to damage control in a way.
AD: Yeah.
MP: Just like little things would happen here and there. You know, even during like showroom or sales appointments would always be in the background and someone else would be doing sales, but for like the really curious kinda die hard super fan store - It’s like they walk into the room and they already knew and after the [laughter] buying appointment, they would just like come up to me and be like, “Can I take your picture?”, I’m like, “No, [laughter] oh my God, I know you know, but” -
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: I, like I don’t really want to go there, you know and -
AD: Yeah.
MP: And there’s a reason why I haven’t like you know, like said anything.
JD: It’s kinda weird how we’ve been like a, become obsessed with like who, who is it, I want to talk to them, I want to take their picture. It, it, it’s bizarre, like I don’t know what at what point like, we started moving toward that, but like, it felt like everything was kind of generic for a while and then it was very brand focused and very logo focused and then after that it went, like we had to get a microscope into the brand and find out like who are these people behind the brand I don’t really know what the timeline for that was, but it feels like it, it also moves across industries because in the furniture industry I feel like, you know, it’s brands for a while and then now we, we want to talk to like, we want to know who the designer is. I mean when Ikea started putting - Their designers’ names you know, next to the products - They were making, it was like a big deal. Like, “Oh, this person’s getting recognition for being the designer and there was like that extra level of contact that you had, or, or maybe it’s, it’s like a, a need to be, to feel personally connected in some way or another.
MP: I always argue, you know, wh-; what I love are like unsung heroes how come like not everyone knows what astronauts look like or like [laughter], or like who, who discovered the first you know, potential cure for uh, cancer.
And you know, they obviously made some sort of breakthrough and they’re probably in medical journals but not like anyone can think of their face off the top of their heads.
JD: Yeah.
AD: Iit’s interesting it’s whether you’re selling a personality or whether you’re creating a human connection to the work
MP: You’re right.
AD: I mean there’s value in both, right? We need personalities but sometimes the, the brand can be a little bit more about personality and less about the work and I, I think what you’re doing and I admire it, is you’re trying to create a space where you don’t also have to support the brand with this cult of personality what if you don’t want to be this public figure, but you still want to make amazing work, can you do that in this day and age?
AD: Right.
MP: I would say maybe for my parents’ generation, everyone would know I.M. Pei and what he looks like it’s more rare for people my generation or younger probably, you know what the glass Louvre is and you maybe know who designed it, but you certainly probably don’t know what he looks like my parents have met him a few times and so I think I was like in conversation with his son and then you know, he was, he was walking by and I just know someone who was, in the same room with me, had no clue you know.
AD: Hm, uh, hm.
MP: And then they were like, “Oh my”, they were like “Oh my, oh, oh, like so that’s what he looks like” [laughter].
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: You know, like that kind of thing where I’m like, “Yeah, duh” you know [laughter]. First of all, he’s a hundred [laughter] and like he’s one of the most important living architects in the world but again, it’s like, probably speaks to like a different [1.20.00] generation, that’s like low key, you know, it’s like I, I mean I see it in my students you know, it’s what you’re interested in.
AD: Hm.
MP: They’re definitely interested in different things than, what my friends and I would be familiar with.
MP: I don’t know, I’d like to think that like in, in terms of music or pop culture,I was probably like that their age, but also I knew about the older stuff [laughter] somehow.
AD: Well, you, your mum gave birth to a 30 year old, so
MP: Yeah exactly [laughter].
AD: I think you’ve always been an old soul. So wait, I want to ask about you personally. [laughter] you were born old and you’ve talked about -
MP: Yeah [laughter].
AD: Your, your own neuroses, but I wonder what would you consider your own particular superpowers because personally I think it takes a lot of courage to launch your own line, uh and definitely a conceptual line. II think that’s fascinating and courageous, so I wonder if you would count courage as one of your superpowers or is it field of vision because it seems like you have a pretty long field of vision? What do you think?
MP: Oh my gosh, my superpower. I’d like to say my superpower used to be my memory I think more and more I would be like proven um, correct that like somehow like my memory was you know, just better than the average person.
AD: Uh, hm [laughter].
MP: I think of like my brain as a filing cabinet that I can like reach really deep into, but like lately it’s like, it’s like maximum capacity [laughter]. So, like I think certain things are getting replaced by other things [laughter].
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: like, you know, like a drawer thing emptied out and I don’t realize it and like it’s just being replaced by other stuff, so um, -
AD: Yeah, or they’re jammed in, it’s jammed in too tight and you can’t access things easily [laughter]. I don’t know [laughter].
MP: Yeah, it’s that too [laughter]. You know like the file is, is stuck and it’s -
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: Literally like, “Oh, I think it’s, it’s is it like F?” [laughter] “No, it’s like [1.25.00] H?” [laughter] you know, like it’s, eh, I definitely start feeling that way you know, if that’s gonna be called a super power, like I’ve definitely refrained in social circumstances from, from using it because, it gets a little weird I’ve noticed [laughter] with certain people because, because I, s-; my strength is like, obviously like visual. So, so I can definitely recount like, like photographic memory style, like I can recount and encounter.
AD: What? Wow.
MP: and I’ll cite that encounter versus like uh, you know, not necessarily remembering the person’s name, but I can easily recall like, “Oh, well we, yeah we met because it was at so-and-so’s birthday, it was, it was actually three years ago and you were wearing this and we had a whole conversation about you know [laughter] um, how you just came to visit your grandmother or something”.
AD: Oh my gosh.
MP: And it freaks people out [laughter] you know, and, and I stopped doing that because I’ve gotten too many weird looks, [laughter] you know.
AD: Well, you’re picking up on the social cues, so that’s good [laughter].
MP: Yeah [laughter]. but um, I don’t know, I don’t even know if that’s like a really interesting like superpower.
AD: I think it is. I mean, even Superman has to be really careful with his superhuman strength right?
MP: Yeah [laughter].
JD: So, I, I have an -I have another question, now that we’re finding out [laughter] really interesting things about you personally. Is there anything that people might be surprised to, to know about you?
MP: more recently, as we’ve kind of grown and continued with the collections, I think a lot of people are really surprised at the breadth of it, because for some reason they can’t fathom the fact that we can also do shoes and we can also do sunglasses and I always have to say like, but it’s still just design, you know.
JD: Uh, hm, uh, hm.
MP: i can design um, a piece of stationary just as easily as designing, you know, a lamp maybe. You know, maybe I have to do a little re-; more research because I’m not an electrician and I, maybe there’s certain things I’m not, I might get wrong, but like it’s not the same mi-; the process and mechanics are there -I kinda attribute that to like my dad having like an engineering background.
JD: Yeah.
MP: So, growing up was always like, like, and also you know, obviously that was easy with, uh, with my grandmother teaching me how to sew, so knowing how to put things together, it, it didn’t have to be like, “Oh, well you’re only relegated to cloth, therefore you can’t do anything else” t’s like, it was a constant like figuring out how things you know, really connected and like worked.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: That, stuff like that, so -
AD: Physics Yeah [laughter].
MP: like during like showroom meetings or like buying appointments,people have been really upfront and been insane like. No, there’s, there’s no way that you guys designed all of this and I’m like, “What, what are you talking about? It’s not like [laughter] Ten people and ten different brands in this room”.
AD: Uh, hm.
MP: You know, like, they obviously still look like they’re under the same umbrella. You know, they have the same aesthetic, they have the same style, you know, they just happen to not all be fabric um, you know they can be other things and also just, I think it blows their mind when we also think about everything even just the way it’s set up, you know, so, so during our installations for fashion week, it was like literally from soup to nuts. Everything had to be within the world of Slow and Steady Wins the Race, so like the structures, hangers, we always do custom hangers.
AD: So you do the total environment.
MP: total environment, like everything’srethought. Um, even if it is sort of an intervention of a space where we’re kind of adopting certain elements of the space, but we’re still using it in a way where it’s flipped and like for our own purpose and then there’s always something that’s customized or like custom built.
AD: Yeah, I love that. And every new explanation -
MP: [Crosstalk 1.32.00].
AD: Explanation’s adding to your material vocabulary and your engineering vocabulary and how things -
MP: Oh, definitely and I think that is going back to my neuroses of sort of like, it adds to this sort of like material world that I get really anxious about because I’m like, “Oh my God, there’s so much stuff” you know it’s like [laughter].
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MP: Because I know how to work with more and more stuff, then I kind of accumulate more and more stuff and a few years back I was really committed to doing ceramics and so, you know, the end goal is obviously to have like, you know, Slow and Steady homeware and but I felt like the need to off-; or just understand it first myself Yeah, again it was like more stuff, I, like my brain immediately went to like, “Oh God, well, I have to get a kiln [laughter] and I was like, “Wait” and I’ve got to get uh, carving tools and like I’ve got to get this [laughter], I’m like I need a wheel [laughter].
AD: Yes. Well, what’s a current project, what’s something you want our listeners to know about?
MP: After kind of troubleshooting over the years. I’ve, I figured out a, um, a good way to combine um, Slow and Steady Wins the Race with the original signature, Mary Ping Collection.
AD: Oh.
MP: Um, yeah I was kinda working through it for a Wh-; for the last year with my friend, Catherine, who also is, she’s a s-; [inaudible 1.36.50], so and um, she works on the collections with me. So, um, so there’s a lot of kind of like practical conversations, like intellectual conversations kind of and long-term conversations like you know, is this the right solution, are people going to get confused or hopefully people won’t get confused and this will offer more clarity. So, that’s something I really want to start tackling because because this is the 15 year um, point and so, I think a lot of people are kind of hoping for, for something, you know, this year.
Um, not that I, I mean part of me doesn’t like adhering to that like practice of like anniversary, so, we’re gonna do it in a way that also comments on that as well. but what would be nice is that, that actually kind of combines everything in, in, in a way that I think finally makes a lot of sense and is really clear so that’s what we’re working on.
AD: Yeah. Well, what’s the best way for our listeners to kinda keep tabs on all of those projects? Do you have a newsletter or website, social media?
MP: Yeah, I love our newsletter, like I love like our journal, and so that’s connected to our website,
MP: slowandsteadywinstherace.com and you can click on our Instagram, you can click mailing list to sign up for the mailing list.
AD: Well, thank you so much.
AD: It has been so lovely talking to you.
JD: Yeah, it’s been great.
MP: Yeah, thank you, thank you for having me.
AD: She is a very fascinating person, I, I love that she’s in her own words, ‘reformatting’ the existing fashion space, by not adhering to the seasonal format, by re-examining these classics, by building timelessness into each piece, but discussing the, things like luxury and craftsmanship through materiality and, and price point. I think it’s fascinating.
JD: Yeah, it’s really interesting and she, she kind of broke like through this weird stereotype that I guess I had in my mind of like what fashion designers are like and that they all think about seasons and they all think about trends and you know, she is nothing like that at all. I mean she’s thinking on a, you know, like a macro scale, like fashion in general, and how we interact with it. Like she said, it’s very sociological, it’s very anthropological -
AD: Yeah.
JD: Um, and it’s very research based and I find it really interesting that that, like people watching and walking around New York is like part of her job.
AD: Yes, and her macro view is something I really, really appreciate, because she’s seeking to have a bigger dialogue and a dialogue that can ex-; the conversation that continue through, through generations, through different generations of people, but through different eras of time and she’s also not pigeon holing herself into a certain type of garment construction I mean she set up a framework for herself, but it’s not pigeon hole and I have always really admired people who can give themselves a framework that still allows them to explore everything.
JD: Hmm-mm.
AD: that they’re curious about and her curiosity is something that she she described it more as neuroses [laughter], but I, I think it’s really like this insatiable curiosity and I love that, like you can tell she could spend hours and hours just researching something.
JD: Yeah, well, I like what she said that her professor told her during a critique that you need to ask questions that you can’t answer and then answer them.
AD: Hmm-mm.
JD: Um, and that, I, I kinda came away like thinking about that and how I can apply that in my own work or in my own, you know, creation or art.
AD: That’s how you grow and -
JD: Yeah.
AD: The other thing that she said that, that really gave me goosebumps was talking about how, conducting these investigations and really thinking about the work and really in-; investigating to the point of putting out something that you know is a strong idea, that can hold water and that can stand the test of time is about distilling things down and if you just add to the current population of product that’s in, the influx of all this stuff that’s just being manufactured, then you’re diluting as opposed to distilling and that whole distillation versus diluting thing, that’s a really interesting concept, super powerful.
JD: Oh yeah and it’s, it crosses over disciplines for sure. I mean you can apply that to any industry that makes stuff.
AD: Oh anything.
JD: Or adds stuff to the world [laughter].
AD: Yeah, and in fact I think in media it’s, it’s a problem in media. We have so many channels and we also have so many avenues on the internet and people are taught now to just kind of populate the internet with stuff that will get a search ranking and it’s not necessarily quality stuff, it’s just stuff to dilute the existing space. Anyway, it’s flotsam! [Laughter]
JD: Yeah.
Special thanks to Tai Navares for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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