Ep. 158: Bringing Data to Life with Information Designer Giorgia Lupi

Information designer and advocate for data humanism, Giorgia Lupi, spent her childhood in Italy organizing buttons in her grandmother’s tailor shop, a data collector already in the making. The teenage years had her expressing herself through the punk rock and heavy metal scene in her town. After receiving her master’s degree in Architecture, she began her PhD in Design at Politecnico di Milano while founding Accurat, an internationally acclaimed data-driven design firm. Now a partner at Pentagram, and author of personal projects such as Dear Data, she continues to push for a humanistic approach to data as a path to understanding our complex realities. 

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Read the Transcript

Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. And today I’m talking to Giorgia Lupi. Giorgia is an Information designer and Partner at renowned design consultancy, Pentagra. Born and raised in Italy, she followed up her master’s degree in Architecture, with a PhD in Design at Politecnico di Milano. In 2011, she co-founded Accurat, an internationally acclaimed data-driven design firm. She is the co-author of Dear Data and of the new interactive book,  Observe, Collect, Draw - A Visual Journal. Fast company named her one the 100 Most Creative People in Business in 2018, when she also joined MIT Media Lab as a Director’s Fellow. And her TED TALK on her humanistic approach to data has over one million views… So get ready to fall in love with data...Here’s Giorgia

Giorgia: My name is Giorgia Lupi, I’m an information designer and a partner at Pentagram. I work with data and I love working with data because it is the most interesting and beautiful material we now have to play with. 

Amy: I am so fascinated and I can’t wait to get into that. But I always like to begin at the beginning. Take me back to where you grew up, what you were like as a child, your family dynamic and what fascinated you as a child? How did you interpret and absorb your surroundings? 

Giorgia: Sure, I’m Italian; I grew up in a little town close to Modena, which is another little town in the center of Italy. I was an only child and my parents were also both only children, so really a small family and I spent a lot of time by myself, I guess. Growing up in Italy, I think I’m saying that in retrospect but then you really realise how you are surrounded by history, by particularly, I would say, interesting aesthetical architecture features. And everything that is around you, I think, like talks and breathes about the past and history. 

So I think that in general influenced the way that I started to think  about design later. But one anecdote that I always like to say about when I was growing up is that I loved spending a lot of time at my grandmother’s tailor shop. So she was a seamstress and every day I would lay out on the table her belongings and tools, like buttons, threads, ribbons, pieces of fabric. Every day, organize and structure visually according to a rule that I was making up for myself, such a sizes, colors, if a button had one hole or two holes. So really like, I think already thinking like a data collector in a way. 

Amy: Yes, totally! (Laughter) Wow! Was that supported and regarded as novel and cute that you were organizing buttons according to your own rules and -

Giorgia: Not really (laughter). I think every time my grandmother felt like, why do you need to do it every day and my mom, I think, felt that I was maybe a little compulsive about that. But you know, ultimately I really had a lot of fun and I remember when I learned how to write, maybe I don’t know, around the age of four and six, but then I was every day writing little labels for my grandmother to really interpret it, to understand the rationale behind it. And I think I really remembered the pleasure of organizing these things. It was more fun to me than playing with Barbie’s or anything else. 

Amy: What do you think was encoded into your DNA or your spirit that you were born with that made you need to organize the world around you? 

Giorgia: That’s an interesting question. I think even right now, I take a lot of inner pleasure from outer order, in a way. I like organizing things, I like having things neatly put together, even again, my clothes, my drawers, anything. And I think there’s something that gives me a lot of inner peace when things are laid out according to something that I am controlling, which can also talk a lot about the tendency of controlling and wanting to control too much. 

This is what I’m thinking right now about the overlap that I have between rigor, rules and numbers and scientific structures in expressing myself creatively. So also I take a lot of pleasure to see things visually organized in a series of elements. Even when I go to museums, I’m so attracted and drawn to projects that are made in series and to repetition, the things that really repeat themselves visually. I guess I don’t know what’s in my DNA about that, but I think it’s definitely like an in between numbers and images, logic and intuition. 

I’m sure sometimes there’s a lot of tension between the two. So as much as right now it might sound fascinating, I guess sometimes it’s also a little problematic. (Laughter)

Amy: I’m wondering how this all sort of evolved in your teenage years. Those are typically unstable times as we’re getting rid of our childhood and giving way to adult identity -

Giorgia: I think for me, as for many of us, kind of yours that you might want to get rid of and not think too much about. I think for me, I started, I think in my teenager years I started to feel that life was going to be, and was somewhere else. So I started to kind of feel out of place and with a lot of angstiness and anxiety that just, I think explore other places. 

But you know, you cannot really do it when you’re in high school and I think I took the rebel side of how one can be a teenager in the world and I started to be really involved in the punk rock scene, and heavy metal scene in my little town. I used to play the piano so then I started to play the keyboard in on heavy metal band -

Amy: Oh, I love this, I love this!

Giorgia: Turning all of my wardrobe, my closet into black clothes, to the point really I remember, you would open my closet and it’s just black, two things that could be exactly same as one another. And I don’t know, I mean I liked the idea of playing, of performing. At the same time I also, I started doing ballet when I was a little kid and then obviously when I was in high school and a teenager I didn’t want to do ballet anymore, I did contemporary dance. 

So I think the performative aspect of my teenager life is something that I remember a lot. But I really, really remember being very, but really angsty, kind of like uncomfortable, intense in a way, which I think I really needed to explore something else. That’s the feeling that I remember the most, feeling out of place. 

Amy: Well, I can relate to that. I mean when you start to realize there’s something more, you just have this straining, this chomping at the bit to get - Out there and start exploring and figuring out what’s next. And it sounds like you did… Did you head to Milan to study architecture? 

Giorgia: Actually no. I studied architecture in Ferrara which is somehow close to my home town. I was thinking to go to Milan, I went to Milan after for my PhD but really as a matter of fact Ferrara is known as… when I studied, a few years ago, was known to be the, let’s say the best and the most recognized architectural university in Italy because it was kind of smaller. Imagine that in Milan polytechnic the architecture university, you’ll have classes of like almost a thousand people.

So you couldn’t really benefit from big desks to write and to have the attention of the professor as opposed to these, definitely smaller because they had a test for being admitted, university that I went into where we were 125 with big rooms and a lot of professors just giving us attention. And I’m talking about big rooms because at the time we were all drawing on these big tables, really drawing by hand and we adopted drawing on pad and computer only at the end of my circle of studies. 

So that was, I think, seen as a real plus of studying there. And also, at the time, as much as I talked about how much I wanted to leave, at the time I was so involved with my little music scene and dance scene, then it felt kind of like interesting at least for a few more years to stick around there, I guess. 

Amy: I’m starting to see how the pieces of your life are coming together. I can kind of guess maybe why you studied architecture, if you derive inner pleasure from outer order, I can see - You going to organize cities (laughter). 

Giorgia: Also, I would say though, and again, I think at this point I’m really honest; it was also a way to postpone choosing what I was going to do when I was growing up. In the sense that for me architecture was almost a non-choice, in the sense that I was drawn to the world of art and design. But at the same time really  didn’t want to lose… I mean in high school I studied at a scientific high school and so really the passion for maths and geometry and structure. 

I didn’t want to lose that but at the same time I think studying say mathematic or chemistry wasn’t my thing. So I think once more, kind of like merging these two areas and studying architecture, also knowing that it’s not really likely that I would become an architect because as you know, many people who, at least in Italy, many people who then graduate in architecture end up being fashion designers, photographers, anything else. 

So I think it was a way to be like, you know, I’m interested by the overlapping of creativity and order, but at the same time I want to just keep exploring what I want to do for a little longer. 

Amy: Clearly you’re thriving in the academic framework though, if you decided to study architecture and then get a PhD, you’re not ready to leave academia necessarily. You’re getting a lot of sustenance from it. Can you kind of talk about what that was like for you? 

Giorgia: So I actually started to study for my PhD a few years after I graduated because I graduated in 2006, and now I’m definitely aging myself (laughs). But then I started to work in the, let’s say interaction design field, moved to Milan for a job, to work at an interaction design lab. Which interestingly enough, was one of the spin-offs of the Ivrea Olivetti, big academic movement. But interaction design lab was the, let’s say the design spin-off of that. So I started to work there and then after I actually co-founded my company in 2011, I co-founded my company Accurat, we can talk about, then I also started a PhD in design. 

And I think it was because, definitely I gravitated towards design right away after I graduated, interaction design. But I felt that I didn’t really have any formal design training because architecture was actually different. And especially interaction design and communication design and design that is not about objects, but it’s really about the way that you communicate information, was something that I felt I needed to, in a way, get a bit of background on. At the same time I was practicing and founding my own company. 

So from 2011, for the next few years I was working really 24/7 because doing a PhD and having your own business, it’s a lot. But I think many, many of us, especially in that moment, when you’re 24/25/27, I mean we’re so eager to just figure out where you are in the world according to our curiosities and passions, that I don’t even remember being overworked in a way. I was just very motivated. 

Amy: Wow! Those are two really audacious things though to start at the same time (laughter). so you’re fuelled clearly by just an insane motivation and hunger to learn more and at the same time you’re so invested in this type of work that you founded your own company. So let’s talk about Accurat. Tell me what that’s about and what kind of projects you did that shaped you as well as you shaping the world around you? 

Giorgia: Totally. So we started Accurat in 2011 and just for a context, then I moved to New York in 2012, still working with my company, trying to find American clients for the company. So I only had a year or a little over a year to be in Milan with my partners at the time and then the few designers that we hired and right after, I mean really soon after we started working remotely with them. 

At the time also one of my partners was my partner in life. It’s now my ex-husband, we’re like so, so close together and we still collaborate, so all for the best. But at the same time I think also the passion and motivation for working all the time came from the fact that also my partner in life was invested in the business and the creation of these ways of seeing data and data visualization. So I think we were really just like fuelling each other with working in evenings and figuring it out. 

I remember I really didn’t have a lot of other interests besides working, which means it can sound a little dry, but at the time I was really excited. And you know, when we started Accurat we had a good [rate?] opportunity. So the main Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera started to issue a Sunday cultural supplement called [** 0.18.36], which is translated as The Act of Reading and Spending Time Reading. And one of the editors at the time wanted to have a weekly column called Visual Data where one of the articles or pieces of information that was presented was actually done through a data visualization. 

And we have worked for Corriere della Sera for almost two years, so every week, going and looking for data in cultural or society relevant topics, building our own data set and then translating it into a data visualization that every time had a different visual language and we really made it a goal for ourselves to explore what can be done in data journalism if we go beyond the bar charts and the pie charts and really try to shape a visual experience, in a way, with data.

And I really feel that that was the project that shaped the rest of my path because I was working closely to Simone, the other one of my partners who is a sociologist. And so coming to data really with this qualitative drive to look for causes and deep messages and using data not really as a way of quantifying reality, but more as a descriptor for reality. And I think also coming from architecture, I started to just shape this architecture of the visualizations in a way that probably is not very orthodox for data visualization, just really because it wasn’t coming from the field. So you know, long story short, that was the beginning of Accurat and I think it really still is shaping the way that I see data nowadays. 

Amy: Well, when I was researching you I found it so compelling that you described these projects for the journal, as visual narratives where your imperative was to create non-linear storytelling that was as thoughtful as the essays. You’re using data like language, you’re using it like poetry and you’re using it in a way that allows somebody to kind of find their own path and discoveries within the data. It feels so wonderful to be recognized by data instead of reduced by data. 

Giorgia: Absolutely. Isn’t it fascinating? I mean I love to think about, for example in this case, data visualizations not as a way to simplify reality because reality is complex and who am I to just really try and simplify it and narrow it down for two charts? I mean it is a way to get access to complexity in a way and this is also why many of my projects, especially when I can ask for some sort of engagement and attention from the readers. So many of my projects look dense, look very rich in information. 

But then I think the amazing role of the designer is to provide clarity, which again, is not simplifying but it’s working with visual hierarchies and visual entry points and actually really building and designing keys that can be the way for everybody to find their own path through the data. I’m like, so passionate about this. I think everybody should just love data. 

Amy: (Laughs) Well, I love that you’re so passionate about it because we do need an interpreter. I don’t think that everybody else has the capacity to maybe take such overwhelming amounts of complexity and find ways through it. And the thing that I love about your work is you’re not finding a singular conclusion with the data. You’re finding layers and overlaps and patterns and depending on the rules you apply to it or the organization or categorization you apply to it, it can be different, it can tell different stories. It’s the application of those different sets of rules that allow you deeper understanding of what the data could possibly be representing. 

Giorgia: You really hit a point here and I think that these can lead us to even talking about what data is and what data is not, because you raise such a great point. I mean data is not the end of the end of the conversation and data is not finding the solution to our questions. To me data is a material that we have, is a lens that we have to filter our reality through. But it’s ultimately an obstruction of our reality. 

And I think data is always subject to an interpretation. Data is not as objective as we think it is because it has always been collected by somebody and even if it comes from a censor, well, a human being designed the censor and decided what to collect and what to leave out. So I think the more that we can see data as an intriguing and interesting… I mean I’m not really particularly liking the word that I’m about to use, like ‘storytelling’ material, but for lack of a better word, it’s like really a way that we have to filter our realities through and then to present it back through design. 

And obviously having data is definitely better than not having data for decision making purposes. But many times we’re missing data that is not accounted into the data set as missing data. We don’t know how this data is collected and this needs to be taken into account when the data is interpreted. That’s why I feel this human life that data has is the one that we should focus more. 

Amy: So you are an advocate for data humanism. Can you tell me what you mean by that? 

Giorgia: So I kind of came up with the term ‘data humanism’ (laughter) to be really honest, it’s one of these things where I was trying to describe the way that I interpret data and the way that I approach data and also because I needed to sort of like also come up with a big idea around my TED Talk. I mean at some point that term ‘data humanism’ came up and people started to engage with it and to be curious about it. 

Saying, huh, data humanism, and so I actually needed to find a definition for it and right after, I think, I started to just start thinking about what are the premises that I would like everybody to think about the data word and so data humanism for me is a way to always connect numbers to what they stand for, which are, once more, our lives. Our imperfect, messy and human lives, and I think it’s a way to say that every time that we talk about data we should not only talk about the numbers, but include as much context as we can to help the numbers that are being collected. 

And to what is around the numbers, the why, the where, the what, and not only how much in a way. And also then when we do represent these numbers, we should focus on what the numbers represent and not necessarily again, dumb them down all the time into these three or four charts that we usually use as if all the work could be reduced into three visual model of charts. And so again, experimenting with languages that might not be super familiar to the eye, but that can really, I think, the peak and the bad all of the complexity around the data. 

And in these days I really always like to remind people that it’s not that we were born knowing how to read a bar chart or a map. So there’s a lot that we can do in terms of teaching and educating people to appreciate also the richer ways to represent data. Because we’re faithful to the complexity and the nuances of data. And so you know, around there I started to just really play around with data humanism, which I feel it’s also something interesting because we’re not used to put together the world of science and data with the world of actual humanities. 

Amy: But we should be, I mean I feel like that is where we need the most cross pollination right now. And I think that’s what you’re advocating for with data humanism too. I’ve always felt really strongly that STEM education should also include arts education because it’s the creative application of this that is going to help drive the novel solutions and the innovation. But I also think the creative and human understanding, the transcendent, the ineffable, the empathy with the human condition, all of that needs to be filtered through the data so that we don’t keep reducing people in a way that dehumanizes them. 

Giorgia: Yeah, totally, I mean you’re a data humanist too (laughter). 

Amy: Yeah, well you know, I do think of this podcast as a form of qualitative research and so thank you for being a subject (laughter)  -

Giorgia: Any time. 

Amy: I’m gathering data right now. So you’re a partner at Pentagram and you coined ‘data humanism’ and gave a powerful TED Talk and you are clearly passionate about the mission that you’re on. What does that look like and feel like on the day-to-day, like from both a practical and evolutionary perspective? 

Giorgia: So well, I joined Pentagram as a partner a little over two years ago, that was June 2019. And obviously in these two years things happened and with Covid and it has been remote most of the time, up until recently. I guess the trajectory shifted a little because there was a lot of, I think, my personal efforts in the past year that was actually just like, keep it together, keep the team together, figure out a way to still get clients even though, for example, I was very much focusing on installation in the physical space right before the pandemic. 

And obviously everything got shelved, everything that was in the physical space got really put on hold. Obviously as in any business, there’s a lot that it’s about, I think. Like figuring it out and figuring out the financial and the organizational and management issues in a way. But I think for me joining Pentagram is a really exciting next chapter of my work life because with Accurat, which is still up and running and still collaborating with them. With Accurat most of the times in the last years we focused on also business-to-business projects with data. 

So working with marketing departments, but really also IT departments and the departments of big companies that needed to work with the data of the very company. So kind of like more internal projects that I think was great because it helped us build software development capabilities and it helped us scale the company. But personally I’ve always been more intrigued to projects with data that could touch the final customer. The visitor of a museum, the client and customer of a product. And so in a way I think Pentagram, for me, was a challenge. Like how can I use the language of data as, actually defining data as a language to create campaigns and even projects of a kind that we can wear and see every day. How can I use data to create brand identifies or activations in the physical space. It’s still a thing that I’m trying to explore, so how to integrate what I do actually with what Pentagram does and has been doing for the past 50 years, which is in general, if you think about it, communication design. 

And communication design that for the scale of some of the projects that my partners have worked on, communication design can really influence the way that we see our society and our culture. So obviously it is an incredible opportunity that I have, that I’m also still really again, trying to figure out how it looks like. I mean I think that most of the times when you hear people talking about their past and their career and maybe even hearing me speaking, it feels like everything is so planned out, one step after another, with a great plan in the beginning. 

But at the same time and this is definitely true for me, there’s just a lot of figuring it out every day and following your intuitions and following your curiosities. And thinking at the same time, the day-by-day and how to survive this that led to tomorrow as well as what would I like to do in the next month and years. But it’s the constant back and forth and checking with reality and aspirations that I think will bring it to the next steps. So that’s really where I’m at right now. 

Amy: I like that. You painted a picture of zooming out and then zooming back in, zooming out on where you want to generally point yourself in what direction, zooming back into the practical. I think so many creatives sometimes get… They stumble over themselves when they think there’s supposed to be a plan and I just want to reinforce that there is no plan. There’s no plan. You’re making it up every day. The only thing you’re doing is using your creativity and your intuition to navigate that pretty astutely based on your skillset. 

Giorgia: Absolutely. 

Amy: I really want to talk about your creative process. I think when people hear ‘data design’ or ‘information designer,’ there’s an assumption that you’re working purely in algorithms and filtering lots of numbers through computer programs and things. But your process, I don’t think, looks like that. Tell me what it does look like? 

Giorgia: Yes, (laughs) I do draw and sketch a lot with data and I’m lucky enough that I have people who work with me that also really live and breathe by crunching numbers and algorithms. And so I thrive a lot on collaborations, especially because again, once more, I’m a designer and I’m not a computer scientist, I’m not a software developer. I have learned in the past 12 plus years to really collaborate with people who are amazing and great at analyzing numbers and actually making interactive experiences with these numbers. 

But my process really is very analogue. And it starts from asking a lot of questions in the very beginning to figure out if the data that I’m presented with in any given projects, are the right data to represent. And most of the time the process involves going to do more data research and adding, let’s say contextual details and outside stories in a way to the data that might be the data that a client presents me with. 

Some other times I really don’t have any data in the beginning and so the process is really analogue to just, even craft data sets from the story of people, from books, from anything that you can think about, that can be a topic of an installation, for example, or a communication project. And then I think the more I get deep and with team we get deep into the data and understanding what can be the angles that are interesting. 

So for example, just to make it very clear, is it a story that we want to tell chronologically? Is it a story that has a grouping component when we want to highlight categories? Is it a story about a ranking, in a way? Is it a story that has a geographical component? Well then I think we really, and I really start sketching and sketching depending obviously on the data, but also on the very output. Because I span from working for magazines to interactive installations, to again, installations in the physical space, to even once I designed a fashion collection. 

So definitely the final material, when the data visualization will be manifested on, influences a lot, the way that we sketch out what I can call the visual model. And then obviously there’s the final part, which is making it into the final details that sometimes involves doing it digitally. Sometimes I have been developing projects that are hand drawn from the beginning to the end. Sometimes there’s development involved because there is interactive experiences with data. 

So I mean in a way the process is kind of linear, even if it changes all the time, in terms of the type of outputs that I’m working for, and the goals obviously. I always say that there’s such a spectrum between design rich narratives where you need to just sketch a lot of data layers and projects that are more straightforward, when you’re designing for immediate decision making and definitely you can’t ask say a pilot who is landing a plane to read the legend on their dashboard, you know? So it always depends on the goal. 

Amy: Well, that makes sense to me and as you’re describing this I’m seeing kind of a visual of my own of all of this data coming in and you’re like this analogue human filter that the data comes in and gets interpreted and then is reinterpreted out into whatever the end project is. You’ve been saying this all along, but you’re the human in the (laughs) data humanism. But you do it in a really human way. You put yourself into it, literally, by bringing it in through your brain and out through your hands, it’s very embodied -

Giorgia: I mean if you think about it, and just to get into the day-by-day of our days and how they look like at Pentagram. I mean there’s nothing more fascinating to me that for every project, needing to learn about a completely different subject and topic. And you really need to learn, I think, a little more than maybe you would do. Maybe you’re supposed to learn a little more than what you would do for designing say a logo or a brochure or anything that is not deep, deep into the data. 

But I mean I love this aspect that every project, for me, is learning about a completely new subject, a completely new topic. And to the point that all of the times I’m so immersed in whatever I’m working on that I bring it out in my life. I mean it’s similarly, so much of really, as you mentioned, embodying yourselves in the topic and in the data, like breathing this data before sketching it, I find it very fascinating. 

Amy: Okay, so that actually leads into my next question which was: Do you become affected by the data? Of course you do, how would you not. And also how do you yourself personally make sure that you’re investigating, integrating, evolving and expanding your own awareness of the human experience, your own experience being human so that your humanist approach to data is continually expanding?

Giorgia: Wow, this is a philosophical question I think. Working with clients I think there’s always this external check-in that keeps you faithful, I think, to the very message and to how the data needs to somehow be interpreted according to experts that are definitely. And so I think the collaborative aspect with whoever is commissioning me a project that really knows deep about their topic. It’s what makes me, think about the data; let’s say in the right way for that particular project. When I work on personal projects that are self-initiated, and I’ve worked on many that really deal with personal data, personal data about myself or about people that I was collaborating with, well, then it really gets into the very human and personal aspect, which is what is it that you want to discover about yourself and share about yourself through the lens of data. 

I tend to see a lot of the world through data and track things, like when I’m dealing through, even any physical illness, I track my symptoms and I track all of the context around it. I mean it can be really, it can become a little obsessive. I mean even when at like 38 years old I started dating again, I was thinking about my dating life as sort of like it’s evolving very qualitative and human beautiful set in a way. I know in myself, like a little creepy, but you know, it’s just a way for me…

Thinking about it in a different way, it’s my way of journaling. I just journal in spreadsheets and I’m not really doing very well in free form journaling. So if you think about data collection that way, which is this systematic way of journaling with a structure, I think, I hope that right away it starts to feel more human in the process. 

Amy: Hmm-mm. So, you mentioned playing keyboards in a heavy metal band and dancing in your youth and part of your work now involves a lot of speaking appearances, workshops, lectures, writing books that are kind of a personal or hand drawn nature. Your popular TED Talk, Dear Data is the book that I’m referring to, the postcards that you swapped. And there’s a performative aspect to this and I’m a firm believer that passion is contagious and your passion for your subject comes through in all of these examples where you yourself have to be the sort of vehicle for sharing this information. Tell me about that for you and how you approach being both the information and the talent at the same time? 

Giorgia: (Laughs) So, when I was asked to start doing speaking engagements, almost 10 years ago, I mean I just couldn’t say no I was scared and terrified and it was also, I remember at the time at my first speaking engagement in English, and so I was really terrified. But then I went into this stage in Minneapolis, this amazing festival called IO that is a media arts festival. And I was there surrounded by all my heroes in a way, when I came to this field. 

And I think something switched right away when I got into that stage, that was exactly what was motivating me to play the keyboard on stage or to dance, like starting to stop thinking about, oh my god, I’m going to fail. But thinking about, I’m going to enjoy because this is a moment that I have to share, things that might inspire somebody. 

And I think if you start seeing all of this public appearances, such as talks or anything that you want to really share with the world through yourself and through the way you speak, as ways to possibly touch somebody’s cords, inspire somebody or just really share what you’re passionate and motivated about. I think it starts to get less scary and it really starts to become an integral part of the way that you even interpret your work. 

Because what I’ve learned then is that through putting together a talk and through putting together essays and books, it’s a way to reflect on my work that I wouldn’t have if I didn’t have to stop and talk about it in a different way. So I think to me, it’s this constant making, because I feel like making and because I’m following my intuitions. But then what I need to just figure out a way to talk about it, I want to be able to explain the very choices I made and the reasons why I did it. 

And that becomes a further layer, I think, of exploration and investigation about why I do what I do. I’ve also started to realize that when you’re on a stage and many people are terrified of being there, maybe they’re terrified because there’s this weird belief that people that are in the audience wants you to fail. But that’s the opposite. Everybody wants you to succeed when you’re on stage and so if you start from there, and when you make a mistake, stumble for a word, this light doesn’t work, if you just accept that this is what it is and nobody is going to judge you for that. I mean everything becomes a bit more enjoyable, I think.

Amy: I think you’re so right. Just the attitude switch that this is not a hostile audience, this is a friendly audience, it changes the environment from one where you’re in battle to one where you’re just having fun.

Giorgia: Totally. 

Amy: You know, when you were describing sharing your work in that way, it reminded me of cooking because you have to prepare what you’ve been working on for other people to consume. And so it needs to be digestible, it needs to taste good (laughs) and it needs to be fun while you’re eating it. 

Giorgia: Totally, it needs to be appealing. 

Amy: Well, I’m glad that you view that as a part of your work because that’s an essential part of disseminating, I think, these really innovative ideas and not everybody can consume these ideas as readily through, let’s say, academic text. But now with the ability to sort of do a search and see some of your previous talks or something, we have the option to wrap our heads around this kind of innovative thinking in a way that can really touch us when we’re ready for it. At the time that we’re open to this, we can find it. 

Giorgia: Yeah, I mean yeah, you’re right. I guess also I should say that I really do feel very, very lucky because I’ve had, I’ve had a lot of opportunities to share my work in the past and still have, and it’s a blessing. It’s a great, great opportunity. So I also know that I’m particularly lucky that I started to be invited to conferences and I think it’s also an interesting aspect here, which I mean, I know, as a matter of fact, that in the very beginning, especially 10 years ago, some of the tech conferences that on the first one that I spoke at, that invited me, they might have invited me because they liked my work. 

But also because they needed some gender balance and there were a lot of male speakers, but not a lot of female speakers about data and tech. And honestly, I got lucky because I was in that particular bracket and I’m also really glad that I was. Maybe in the beginning of a scene with then many, many other women, got invited and started to be more prominent on the tech and data scene. It’s really, really about opportunities. 

And I think I’ve been many times in my life in the right place at the right moment. 

Amy: Well, maybe that’s true and I’m glad you were lucky, but I’m also glad you took those opportunities and did what you did, so that you can lay the groundwork for more women. (Laughter) So hi-fives. 

Giorgia: Hi-five and to you as well, which I think you had similar experiences in your career, in a way. 

Amy: Yes, yes, definitely. I have a question, have you ever done a self-portrait in data?

Giorgia: In data, many of them, if you think about it. In a way, we can define self-portrait but if you’re thinking about the Dear Data project that was this year long data collection that Stefanie Posavec, a friend of mine now, and an amazing information designer, the two of us collaborated to get to know each other through our data. And so we sort of like built two self-portraits in 52 weeks, mapping all of the aspects of our personalities, the words we would use, our activities, our surroundings, with weekly data collections about a different topic.

Then we used to send data postcards across the ocean because she lives in London and I live in New York. And we used the language of personal data collection to really get to know each other and in a way I think building to self-portraits in data by means of 52 layers of data to share with the other person. So I think for me the year of your data is definitely the most, I would say, thorough data self-portrait of myself that I could possibly behold. 

Amy: It’s a moving snapshot of your life in data, hand drawn and it’s incredible because each week deals with smells or eavesdropping and it takes you into like these moments that as we hurry through our lives, that we forget to pay attention to. And so I loved thinking about you spending a whole week just really dialling in and attuning to all the different smells that came into your -

Giorgia: It’s been amazing, honestly. I mean just really for one, I mean it has been really intense, really, really intense and many times I think both Stefanie and I just asked ourselves why did we even sign up for something like this. (Laughter) But then you know, the attention that you’re forced to pay to the mundane aspects because you want to collect them, it has been really a huge exercise in self-awareness, I have to say. So it’s been really great. 

Amy: Okay, so you have said, ‘We will ultimately unlock the full potential of data only when we embrace their nature and make them part of our lives, which will inevitably make data more human in the process.’ Can you break that down? (Laughs)

Giorgia: Yes, I mean I think that by giving you a few examples of how I see data as this lens and filter that we can use to pass our reality through and then in design material to tell experiences through, I think that that is another way to say that. If we start seeing data not as this entity that somebody else created that is hovering above us and is actually collecting information from us without us wanting it. 

But if we kind of like really start to take ownership of data and I mean this also needs to pass from a lot of, I think, regulation and things that big companies need to do. But I think we’re primed for these conversations. When we really understand that data are ultimately about us and we’re missing data, for example, then the uncertainty around data is as important as the data itself. Because it really talks about the whole context around data. Well, it will only be there, I think, that we will unlock the true potential of data. 

Really, really, I think a clear example is thinking about the data that we’ve been, as a population, presented with, through the Covid pandemic. I mean we passed from a population where only a few of us cared about data to a population where everybody, every morning would scroll charts and maps to make important decisions about their lives and whether to go out or not or to go back to the office or not. 

In this moment in time, we also need to ask ourselves as a general population consuming data, critical questions about once more, this chart that I’m presented with every day about the number of cases. I mean what is the context around that? How many positive tests have been made here? And you know, the timeline starts from March 15th, but the timeline goes way back and there’s so much that we don’t know about before. 

So if only we could render the uncertainty of what we don’t know and the way that we represent data, and I’m not saying that we need to make up quantities, but really share what is, that is like a clear number and what is that might be not known. Well, only their people can get a big picture and again, unlock the potential of this data to help us be more human. 

Amy: Yes, I think that’s a really fascinating need to render the uncertainty as part of the complexity of data. Because so often it’s presented as here’s all the information we have, so this is finite and this is opaque in terms of the conclusions we’re drawing - But the uncertainty is a huge part of it. 

Giorgia: It is and especially when we see… And we think about the election results in a way, when we have these very sharp charts that look so precise about the percentages of say one candidate winning versus the other. I mean these are polls. We can’t render these data sets as super-sized, like if it was the true reality and like if we interviewed 100% of the population. And I think sometimes when we see a chart we think that it’s more real and finite and final as it actually is. So this is why I think there’s so much potential for design, I think, to help everybody become more data literate in a way. 

Amy: I agree and I’m so excited you’re doing this work (laughs). So in conclusion, my main question before we let you go is, how can we support this work that you’re doing in data humanism? How can we find out more information? How can we direct our energies to add to the momentum?

Giorgia: Yeah, I would say just start to think as data as the beginning of the conversation and not the end. And start to ask yourselves in every  moment, in every day when you’re presented with a chart or some numbers, ask yourself critical questions about where did this number come from, who does this number represent? Who has been left out? And this is not to become a critique of data visualization and somebody who is policing charts. 

But it’s more about really understanding how you should take that information as a critical one for your life. And more and more I think, you know, gaining new knowledge asking ourselves critical questions and that’s what I would invite everybody to do. And also maybe start thinking about data as a fun thing, that as a designer you can add to any project. I mean really any pattern that you design can be made from data that like carries an important message behind. So I’m also on the complete other end, if you’re a designer and you’re intrigued to work with data, start thinking about and incorporating it on a small project, I’d say. 

Amy: I love it! (Laughs) Thank you so much. 

Giorgia: Oh, we will, it’s been such a pleasure Amy, thank you, thank you for having me. 

Amy: And thank you for sharing your story and for the good work that you’re doing and this has been really wonderful, I truly appreciate it.  Thank you for listening! To see images of Giorgia and her work, read the show notes. Click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to Clever on Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you are listening right now. If you would please do us a favor tell your friends about us! We’re passionate about these stories and we want to share them far and wide. We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook - you can find us @cleverpodcast. You can find me, @amydevers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. With editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows. They curate the best of them, so you don’t have to, Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk

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What is your earliest memory?

Drawing something similar to fireworks with chalks on my parents bedroom wall (they weren’t happy about my artwork!) 

How do you feel about democratic design? 

All design should be democratic. 

What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?

You don’t have to have it all figured out just yet, at any time. The fun part of living is the process to figure out things, plans, goals. How boring would it be if we knew it all already? (My grandad, when he was 88)

How do you record your ideas?

Mostly on letter sized thick sheets of paper that I then organize in transparent plastic folders. I don’t use notebooks or sketchbooks. I always carry paper and pens with me to jot down thoughts and ideas.

What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?

As I mentioned, letter sized sheets of thick paper and ink pens, specifically muji blak ink pens 0.7

What book is on your nightstand? (alt: What’s the best book you’ve read this past year?)

The body keeps the score

Favorite restaurant in your city?

Faro in Bushwick, Brooklyn (I am biased though! My boyfriend works there:) 

What might we find on your desk right now?

I am very boring: my laptop and the aforementioned paper and pens

Giorgia Lupi on Data Humanism

Giorgia Lupi working on her collaboration with & Other Stories.

Who do you look up to and why?

Paola Antonelli is the first person that came to mind. She is the senior curator for Design and Architecture at MoMA. She has a brilliant mind, curious spirit and incredibly generous attitude. I love everything about her.

What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?

The collaboration with &Other Stories - I design a data driven fashion collection for them. It was incredibly exciting to think about stories that can be translated in data and then in patterns to wear. Seeing my data designs walking around the city worn by people made me really happy. 

What are the last five songs you listened to?

• Simark (Tarkan)

• Feed your head (Paul Kalkbrenner version)

• Say you love me (Fleetwood Mac)

• The girl and the robot (Royksopp)

• The rip (portished)

Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?

@giorgialupi everywhere and @Pentagramdesign

Giorgia Lupi’s project, The Digital in Architecture

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Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.

Clever is a proud member of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows.

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