Ep. 131: Interior Designer Kara Mann
Born and raised in Chicago IL, Kara Mann was steeped in an environment of creativity, elegance, and resourcefulness. An entrepreneur at heart, Kara would sell CDs to fund projects and lie about her age to work restaurant shifts. Now she runs her own studio and has racked up clients like Virgil Abloh, Goop and several luxury hotels. She’s just launched a collection with CB2 and a line of home essentials called Kept. The Wall Street Journal aptly calls her a “spark plug in the world of design.”
Read the full transcript here.
Kara Mann: I don’t lead with my ego, and I don’t expect anyone else to do that either. I think it’s about being creative and in a community where we’re working and it should be fun.
Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to interior designer Kara Mann. A self-described punk rock classicist, Kara Mann’s spaces are a study in edgy refinement and a sort of tough sensuality that is both hyper-cool and very welcoming. She grew up in Chicago and studied art at Tulane before getting her start as a fashion stylist. Now, a little more than 15 years into running her own studio, she’s racked up clients like Virgil Abloh, Goop, and several luxury hotels. She’s also just launched a furniture collection with CB2 and a line of home essentials called “Kept.” The Wall Street Journal calls her “a sparkplug in the world of design.” I like it. Let’s hear from Kara.
KM: My name is Kara Mann, I live in Chicago, Illinois and I am an interior designer. And I do it because I love it (laughs).
AD: That’s the only way you’re gonna be able to put love into the spaces that you make for other people.
KM: Yeah, it’s true, it’s definitely true.
AD: Let’s zero out, all the way back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Chicago? What was your childhood like and your family, what captured your imagination as a young Kara?
KM: So, I grew up in Evanston, which is a suburb just north of Chicago and I am one of three kids. I’m the youngest in my family. I’ve got an older brother and an older sister. My brother is the oldest, my sister is the middle. And you know, we kind of grew up, my mom was a homemaker and my father was an attorney and we grew up in a beautiful arts and crafts home that was built in the late 1800s. So architecture was kind of always a part of my world.
And I would say that my family was into the arts, like we would, I’d always tease that other families would go on skiing vacations and my family would go antiquing (laughter). So at the time I hated it when I was younger, but I definitely grew to love it more and more as I got a little bit older. But you know, we always listened to music and my parents, they’d go to the symphony and let’s see, plays and a lot of things were done around family meals.
We always ate dinner together. It was a really lovely childhood, the way I think back to it. I think the best way to describe the kids in the family and how we all did our thing, is in the basement, we all had sort of our own sections of the basement. So my brother, being the oldest and this is kind of when he was a teenager, he had the lounge station and played Atari and all of his guy friends would come and hang out and that whole thing.
And then my sister had this big open space and she was very into dance. So it was her dance studio. And then I had sort of the space in the back which was my art studio. I had everything under the sun. I had a big drawing table and places to pin things up and piles of construction paper and scissors and crayons and markers and all that kind of stuff. I even had a playschool potter’s wheel back in the day. I loved pottery and ceramics when I was a kid. So being creative was always really, I think a part of me and part of who I was.
AD: Yeah.
KM: I think it all started early -
AD: Looking back on it, do you think the house that you grew up in had a big influence on you too? It was clearly chosen by your parents as you know, for its architectural significance and so I’m sure they maintained it lovingly?
KM: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think that that’s something I specifically look back on. My mom, she was a homemaker but she should have been a designer. She has such a beautiful eye and I think my dad has a thing for history, so it being an old home with beautiful architecture. It had really unique features, leaded glass windows, beautiful ceiling detail throughout, wood panelling, it was a really, really special house.
And I remember, you know when they first moved in there, they had no money, so it kind of evolved over time. It wasn’t like my mom hired the designer to design the house for her. And the backyard was just all grass; I think we had a little playhouse in the back. But as the years kind of evolved and they made it a true home and the backyard was beautiful and manicured and sculptural, they really put a lot into the landscaping.
Every room was really thoughtful. Nothing was really overdone. It was just edited beautifully, elegantly. My mom is very, very elegant. And we had sort of these rituals about it too. Like when we got to a certain age we got to redo our rooms, you know, we got to do them instead of my mom sort of guiding it. So that was like a big thing to us when we were growing up.
AD: Wow!
KM: Yeah. That was like you’re going into high school, you kind of like made it into the big world and you got to redesign your room.
AD: Giving you permission to design your own room, that must have been kind of a pivotal formative experience for you?
KM: Yes, I got to use my creativity (laughs). Looking back I realize that growing up I had a pink room, it had pretty floral wallpaper and the whole thing. And when I was able to change my room, I did a white room with like black accents. And I look back and I realize, I’m like, if there’s nothing else I am, I am consistent because (laughs) my favorite palette seems to still be black and white in all its many forms. I don’t know, I don’t know why it is, but it is. (Laughs)
AD: You’re the youngest of three and you’re clearly creative and you had a powerful experience, you know, designing your own space and then being able to live in it. But I’m wondering what adolescence was like for you and as the youngest, did you have to sort of rebel to get noticed or, what were your outlets for your teenage angst, other than your black and white palette?
KM: Yeah, yes, I definitely felt that I needed to rebel. My brother and my sister were a year apart and they were like, you know, they hung out together, they ended up at the same parties, all that kind of stuff. And I always felt like the outlier to the family. Now of course, if you talk to my brother and sister, they would beg to differ, but since this is my interview and my perspective (laughs) I’ll stick with my story! (Laughter) Yeah, so let’s see.
I mean I was a little naughty, I’m not gonna lie. I probably was kissing boys too early and there was, like back in the day like you’d have your lunch break and if you got your schedule worked out perfectly, you could get two lunches in a row. And so I always made sure I did that, so I could leave campus and you know, go do things I shouldn’t do and stuff like that. So I -
AD: Oh, you truant!
KM: Yeah! I was not like my black and white schemes that I love so much, I am kind of black and white. Like I was a good student, but I also was, I also goofed off a lot. But I wasn’t so angsty, I would say. I mean after that, when I went to college, I got more into my hippie phase.
AD: Let’s hear about that because you went to New Orleans, right, and studied fine art at Tulane?
KM: Yeah, that was so amazing. I look back and argh, my god, what a great experience. My brother went to Georgetown and I was like, I’m gonna go to Georgetown like Paul. And the rest of my family was like, yeah, no, you’re not! (Laughs) While I was a good student, I wasn’t as good as my brother. So maybe I should have not taken those two lunches! I thought for sure I was gonna get into Georgetown, I did not get into Georgetown and thankfully my brother’s high school sweetheart was at Tulane at the time and so she, this was back in the day when you actually got a paper application and filled it out and sent it in. So she brought me back an application and I was like, oh god, I’m gonna have to fill this out because Julie asked me to. So I filled it out and thank god because I got in (laughs).
But Tulane was such an amazing experience. It felt like you were living in Europe, it was so different than anything I had known or understood in growing up outside of Chicago.
AD: New Orleans is so magical on so many levels and layers, with all of its cultural influence and all of its sort of, shadowy and nature overtaking things.
KM: Yes! Yeah, you described it really well. There were just so many layers to it and I found that I really got so into the city of New Orleans and all of its beautiful layers and I was very into the arts at that point, really into music. I remember being in the art department, working on something and one of my friends comes running in and she’s like, Kara, Kara, Kara, there’s a second line down in the quarter, we got to go. And our friend Henry was like this amazing dancer and he was like leading the second line basically.
AD: What’s a second line?
KM: It’s a funeral march actually, is the way it started. But it kind of starts slow, I hope I’m describing this right, but like slow and a little bit sombre and then by the end of the march, typically through the deceased’s neighborhood, a party starts to evolve and people start dancing and music is played down the street. It’s just, everything -
AD: What a beautiful ritual!
KM: Yeah.
AD: Oh my gosh!
KM: It’s so cool, it’s so cool. So you know, doing things like that on a Thursday afternoon is not your norm for college. And I remember I had an internship at the Contemporary Art Center and one of my jobs was, I got to go to, like if there was a performance, I got to go bring the checks to all the performers, all the musicians, so I got to meet some cool musicians. And I think that note about nature just, I remember sitting, there was a huge tree outside of Audubon Park called The Tree of Life and everybody who went to Tulane knows where it is.
But sitting under that, it was one of those huge trees that dripped all the way to the ground and pondered life. It was just such a beautiful experience, I’m so thankful for my time in New Orleans. I think it really formed who I am today, truthfully. I did a lot of antiquing down there too, I love to just dig through stores and spend money I didn’t have and all that kind of stuff. I kind of still do that (laughter).
AD: It’s perfect. Did you ever consider staying in New Orleans or did you always know that you were gonna, that was your formative petri dish for you but then you were gonna launch out of it and go somewhere else?
KM: I still laugh because it was like, it was graduation and I was like, mom, dad, I’m just gonna stay in New Orleans. My mom was like, no you’re not and I was like, okay (laughter). I think she probably knew I was probably better off getting out of there, although I do look back and I was definitely in more of a hippie phase in my life and I went more towards the art avenue. But I was friends with so many architecture students and if I was smarter back then, I would have studied architecture at that point because A, I didn’t really realise that that’s where my life was gonna take me and B, it was a five year program, so I could have gotten an extra year down in New Orleans (laughs).
It was super cool and I would have stayed there. I’ve thought about having a house down there at some point in my life again, because it’s just such a cool place to be.
AD: You could have studied architecture, but I’m sure your fine art education informs your work today in ways that an architecture education wouldn’t have, don’t you think?
KM: You know, I think what it did, how it helped me is just being creative. Like when I graduated, I studied ceramics, it was my major, my focus. And I got out and I knew I wasn’t gonna be an artist. I just, it wasn’t gonna be what I pursued as a career. But what it helped to teach me was just being resourceful, being creative. Really the sky is the limit. So it was kind of nice to start there first and then sort of move into architecture and interiors which are so beautifully creative as well, it’s just a different type of creativity and it’s more structured.
AD: But I feel the same way about my education. I studied furniture design and I learned a lot about building furniture, but what I really learned was how to build anything.
KM: Aha, exactly!
AD: That’s kind of exactly what you’re saying. I learned how to take an idea from zero to something -
KM: Yeah. Yeah, like how do you do that, like how do you get there.
AD: Right, what’s that path look like and what are all my resources that I have and how do I use them and manipulate them to get to an outcome that I’m shooting for.
KM: And even just perseverance, because I remember being like with your projects and being like, ah, why did I do this (laughter), you should have done this so differently and you’re just glad to finish it somehow. And I was like, you know, you had to persevere a little bit.
AD: Yeah, definitely and also commitment -
KM: And then you had to go sell it, and get critiques.
AD: Right and you had to save bad ideas sometimes, like how do I rescue this into something meaningful.
KM: Oh my god, there is nothing worse than showing up when you know you bombed a project and seeing everybody else’s really cool projects and you’re just like, argh, god, I don’t wanna go (laughs).
AD: And you’re so exhausted at that point too cause you probably spent so many all-nighters, your emotions are just right on the surface, it’s like, oh god. (Laughter) Okay, so what were your first few steps in the professional world after college? How did you find your professional self from your hippie ceramicist, artist self?
KM: So, I remember I was sitting in my parents’ living room, I was back from school, I had just graduated and I was like oh my god, I just wish I could do it all over again, I would have done it so differently. And my parents started cracking up and one of their friends was over and he was in advertising and so he said, well, what are you gonna do? I’m like, I have no idea. And he’s like, what do you like to do? And I was like, I don’t know, I like poking around in antique stores, not really coming up with a really direct answer.
And he’s like, well why don’t you work as a photo stylist. And I was like; I don’t know what that is. And so he explained to me what it is and it sounded so cool. I was like, wait, how do I do this? So he literally gave me like the name of a photo-; maybe the name of two photographers and I cold called them and was just like, hey, I wanna be a stylist and they gave me a name of a stylist to call.
I’m super scrappy if I’m nothing else, so I just made a lot of phone calls and showed up when I wasn’t wanted (laughter), tried to help in any way I could. And started down the path of working as a stylist and you know, it was slow going and I wanted to do more fashion. There’s not really fashion in Chicago at the time, or really still. And I was waiting tables on the side, I think I had three jobs, I was working as a stylist, I was waiting tables on the weekends at this breakfast place and then working at the Double Door at night, so I could see bands play because I was still loving, so into music and stuff like that.
So it was kind of a slow road to get working, predominantly as just a stylist, which was great. And then I did that for several years and towards the end of it I was doing a little bit more lifestyle and working with, there’s a really great photography firm here called the Hedrich Blessing and they would shoot for House Beautiful and things like that. So I meandered my way onto some of those shoots and realized that I didn’t want to just style someone else’s work, I wanted to create the interiors.
So that was really my foray into finding the path to interior design. And I went back to school at night and was working, again, probably still two jobs, going to school fulltime at night and got my design degree.
AD: Where did you go back to school, are you in Chicago at this point?
KM: Yeah, I was in Chicago, at the time there was a school called Harrington Institute of Interior Design, it was a private school. It was kind of just so cool. It was in the Fine Arts building here in Chicago. There was still a man that operated the elevator and you’d go up and it was just, you’d hear music playing because it was different people’s studios and the school was there. And it was more of like a practical school, like the Art Institute had an architecture program but it was more theory and all that kind of stuff. And I just, I was like, I got to get out and get a job (laughs), I need to support myself.
AD: Right, sometimes you just need to know the nuts and bolts of how the machine works and then you’re like okay, I already know how to express myself if you just teach me how to drive the car, I can get there.
KM: Exactly! Exactly! So that’s really what Harrington was, for me at least. It served me well, I still laugh, I was like the worst student too, I hated (laughter), I can’t remember what they would be called, but when we were meant to work on your project in class instead of like being taught something and so I would never come with any of my stuff to work on. I’d just sort of sit in class until we were able to leave.
And everybody would be like, have you done any work and I really hadn’t because I would literally wait until the last minute and then I would probably five days before it was due, I would turn into a mad scientist and literally stay up around the clock and design what I had to design and show up for class and then, it kind of just came out of me. It was so fun (laughs). I don’t know if I would do it any differently today. (Laughter)
AD: I can totally relate to that because I would see these other people that were just, I don’t know, they seemed diligent or they seemed more inspired than me because they just sort of progress incrementally on their projects and they’d be sort of ahead of schedule or on schedule and I would sort of have these fits and starts where I’d bring in a half-baked idea and it just wouldn’t be worth investing any more time in it. So then I’d go back to zero but I realize now, and then I’d do what you did, which is the last five days I’d have this burst of inspiration and then I’d stay up all night and pull it out and frequently be pretty proud of it.
KM: Totally yeah (laughter), it was like, wait, I just nailed it.
AD: Yeah! Yeah! (Laughter) I’m like, why couldn’t I have started on this earlier? But what I came to realize is that whole period is marinate… Like we needed to marinate -
KM: Yes, I’m a marinader, that is for sure, like it takes a long time to bubble up and kind of get what I want to come out and I’ve gotten better about it over time but you know, I think when you’re not so sure of yourself and you’re not totally sure of your design or even kind of what you’re doing and being able to pull back far enough to get that big picture, yeah, I kind of would just sit and simmer a little bit before I could get anything out of me (laughter).
AD: Yeah and all that would be congealing until it was like, oh god, time to give birth (laughter).
KM: Totally, yeah, exactly, watch out.
AD: Okay, is that still your process because it’s a painful one, I tell you.
KM: Oh, painful, I am definitely, thankfully gotten better and it helps when you’ve got a team of talented people around you helping you with it. So I mean that is one thing I have to say with my business that I’m super proud of today is that I think just because of all that pain, you know, you go through and we have a really great system in place. But like, has evolved, obviously, over the 15 years that I’ve had my company and how do we go through the process so we’re not, so the whole office isn’t staying up for five days before a presentation (laughs). I was just seeing everybody burning out and it just, you don’t need to, it can be more direct is what I’m learning in my old age (laughs).
AD: Can you share with us that wisdom? You started your own studio, you say like 15 years ago, so that was a major step and yeah, can you paint the picture of starting your studio and then getting to the place where you are now, where you’ve got your system worked out, but you’ve also, you’ve had some major projects under your belt and opened a few offices in New York, LA and Chicago, right?
KM: I got out of school and I had worked, I’d worked for more of a commercial film my first year at school, literally as the receptionist. I just wanted to be in an office and understand what an office, a design office was about. And then my second year in school I went and worked for just like a one person firm in the suburbs who was more of like a decorator, just doing residential. I wanted to see what that was about. In my third year I kind of ended up working for a woman whose husband was a big architect in Chicago and they were doing kind of a hybrid of the two and worked for her. And then when I graduated, for whatever reason, I mean it kind of was a second career for me. So I felt more of an adult.
I was in my late 20s and I always, I’ve always been entrepreneurial. Like it’s been a part of my being since I was younger. I’d lied about my age so I could go work at Carbon’s pizza when I was 15, I wanted to make money. I had a project that I needed some money for, so I sold all my CDs in high school one year so I could make enough money to put the down payment on this, I mean I was just always doing something like that.
And so I knew when I graduated from school that I wanted to start my own thing. And so at the time the woman that I was working for wanted to grow her firm and we ended up partnering for about four and a half years, which was great because she was older than I was and you know, they had a different set of friends and clients and that kind of stuff, it would have taken longer to get to the point of getting there.
So that was a good tactical move, I think. Ultimately we ended up ending the partnership, we just kind of had different points of view and I started my own company in 2005 and honestly, I’ve never taken a business class in my life. I just kind of put my head down and persevered, like I said before. It’s like, kind of just, you just keep getting up and going to your office and hustling and, you know. I love the business side of things as much as I love the creative side of things.
So that’s always been part of my drive and I do really think it goes back to my parents. My dad is super driven. We always said he’d die at his desk (laughs) because he’s like a workaholic. I think his company made him retire at 81 (laughs) but anyway. And then my mom had this really beautiful eye, so I kind of got a blend of the two of them, which is super cool. But it’s not been easy and I was a workaholic and work came first, work was everything to me and kind of growing my firm. I guess now with the climate of the world right now, I can say I’ve been through two recessions and kind of lived through the first one, living through the second one right now.
And there’s been a lot of great clients along the way and there’s been a lot of shitty clients along the way (laughs) you know -
AD: Man, and the shitty ones are no fun, but you learn so much from them and from the way that you deal with them. Like you learn a lot about yourself too.
KM: Yes! Yes! It’s like yeah, you have to get up when you’re having a problem, it’s looking in the mirror and being like, okay, how am I contributing to this or how do I want to grow from it and a lot of times, when I was younger with the firm, I didn’t know and I didn’t really have a mentor. And the other thing I never had was, I never worked in an office, like a big office. It was like just me and my partner. We had a few people and then when I went out on my own, it was just, I grew, I think in the first year I went out on my own, I grew from four to 14 employees.
And I’ve been as many as 40 and as little as four over the years. So you know, you’ve got to be really nimble.
AD: Do you have natural leadership skills or how did you find you were in terms of managing personalities and office culture and all of that?
KM: Well, I think the way it starts, and I always say this during an interview is like, I don’t lead with my ego and I don’t expect anyone else to do that either. I think it’s about being creative and being in a community where we’re working, we want to work together and it should be fun. And so there’s not that competitive nature. I don’t like being competitive just to be competitive, it doesn’t do anything for me, you know -
AD: Me either, it wears me out and I also, I don’t like being competitive because I don’t wanna win if it means somebody else loses. Like I literally want both of us to win (laughter).
KM: That’s how I feel in my office, I’m like, we can all do this. I’ll get down on the floor and cut up some paper, just like anybody else will. There’s no prima donnas here I guess. So maybe I’m a little bit more competitive than you are because I still like to win (laughter).
AD: Well, I mean I like to win but I like to, so let me just give you an example because not that this podcast is about me, but I like to win a spelling bee where everybody self-eliminates and I’m the champion. But I don’t like to win a tennis match where me winning means trouncing somebody else and there’s like a sad loser on the other side (laughter).
KM: That makes total sense! I can completely agree with that, for sure, for sure, yeah, it’s more like internal competitiveness.
AD: Yeah, I want to beat myself, I want to beat my own record each time, yeah.
KM: Totally, I always wanted that, like I always wanted to grow bigger and that’s why I opened an office in New York. It was like so intriguing to me, I was like, I want to be in New York, like everybody needs to be in New York and it was just like, cool. But I’ve always been super grounded in the fact that I’m from Chicago, I’m connected to my family. So it wasn’t like I was just gonna close my office and start over in New York. It was like I had built something really meaningful here in Chicago, so that’s why I opened a second office in New York back in 2011.
And was getting jobs there and I look back, oh my god, some days were like total fucking shit shows, you know, it’s like, I didn’t know I was supposed to get on a flight and I was bouncing back and forth between Chicago and New York for like two times a week and you know, literally landing and going straight to the office. Rolling into a presentation, working really late, going out for two dinners in New York, because that seems normal and typical there (laughs) and then doing it again -
AD: From two lunches to two dinners.
KM: Yeah, I mean it was crazy! I’ve just been running-running-running. So you know, it’s come with a lot of hard work and a lot of sweat and a lot of tears but I wouldn’t change it for the world, it’s been so awesome (laughs).
AD: Well, is there a project in there that you can describe that sort of validated to yourself that you’re on the right path and that you’re doing what you’re meant to be doing and that you felt, that you still feel really proud of or that challenged you in some way?
KM: I mean there were so many. I think every time you’re in the moment and you get sort of that next big project, it’s like maybe a little bit bigger than what you’ve typically had before or it’s a different channel, maybe it’s more commercially focused versus residentially focused. I started just doing residential, so just sort of, I always love those tentacles that could happen and where those can go. I think being able to, when I left my partnership, being able to look at our client list and see that we each had brought in almost similar jobs, you know, similar scale and all that kind of stuff.
So I felt very confident being able to go out on my own at that point, so that felt good. And then I think you know, when I went to New York I kind of needed, I needed something to go there for. I didn’t want to just show up. And so I had been kind of bopping back and forth and doing some projects and ultimately when I made my big move and opened my office in New York, I was awarded the Chelsea Hotel project, which was amazing.
It was like the most amazing thing I’ve ever done, and the worst project I’ve ever been on (laughs).
AD: Well, yeah, so with your love of music and all of that, I can see why the Chelsea Hotel would be a dream for you -
KM: Yeah, totally.
AD: But then also, you know, I’m sure our listeners are aware of the renown of the Chelsea Hotel and it’s landmark status for being a hub of creativity and bohemia and punk rock and literary genius and it’s just seeped into the walls for years and years and years, but that also, you know, the renovations of that hotel were problematic and rife with controversy.
KM: Oh yeah.
AD: There was a lot of resistance to that and so I think that project, like you got a chance to design the interiors, but then it never went forward, do I have that right?
KM: Yeah, actually I was hired, I worked under, I was kind of hired twice. So I worked on the project for a total of five years and -
AD: Oh my gosh!
KM: Crazy! And so we only got to DD, we only got to design development (laughs), so we were hired under one group of developers and it was a pretty tumultuous situation and they were trying to just get a company off the ground and it was nuts. And so, and me and my whole team were so passionate that it was, it was so emotional to us. And just like doing the research and making sure it was perfect and there was a lot of pressure for it to be, you know, it is infamous and famous and it needed to be just right. And I wasn’t a New Yorker, so that was pressure too.
AD: Yeah, I mean you would have to really pay tribute and take its history into account and not in any way pave over it. That must have been a really, god creatively, amazing project, but also just wow, so sensitive, you’d have to be so sensitive.
KM: Yeah and it’s funny because now that I look back, I’m glad, so like that development group split up and then one of the developers moved on with a new set of developers. And I got the job back. And the second time around it was so much better than the first. So I was so happy that that actually happened (laughter). You don’t always get that chance -
AD: No, you got a do-over already?
KM: I got a do-over (laughter) which was amazing and it was so much more poignant and I had grown up a little bit and yeah, had an amazing team and I think we really tried to approach it in a very thoughtful way that didn’t feel trendy or a way that you think of it -
AD: Or exploitative.
KM: Yeah, yeah, it was like the things that I remember was walking through the building and everybody had kind of like decorated the outside of their doors and it was like, it was almost like their personalities were spilling out. They couldn’t… Because everybody was so creative and wanted to express themselves. It was just; to me it was just meant to be like a blank slate canvas and just edited approach to it. But then that development team split up and that whole team kind of got kicked off the project, so I got kicked off the project.
And it was devastating. I thought my life was over and I still remember being fired from the first group and getting, I think I got like a certified letter or something like that, on Thanksgiving day, firing me (laughs). It’s like -
AD: Oh man!
KM: Well that’s mean spirited (laughter), like you couldn’t have just waited a day, like come on! And I remember talking to a friend of mine who had lived in New York and she was an artist and the whole thing and I was like crying and the whole thing and she’s like, oh Kara, everybody has a bumpy landing when they get to New York. And I was like, thank you, because I’m really having a bumpy landing (laughter), it was so bad (laughs). But you know, I still look back on it as one of my favorite projects, just because it really pushed me creatively and I loved the research aspect of it so much -
AD: Oh yeah.
KM: And being in New York and meeting all of the fun kooky people that lived in the building still. So it was a really meaningful time in my career.
AD: Oh, and the historical significance and I’m sure with all those development groups, like the politics of everything, you probably learned a lot too, probably wasn’t fun but -
KM: Oh my god, yes, I mean I’d never done anything like that before and then trying to sell it to, you know, bankers and that kind of stuff to get funding and you know, you were kind of always performing. It was a crazy, amazing total shit show and I loved every minute of it (laughter).
AD: Well, as somebody who has been called a punk rock classicist, everything about that project sort of fits in, like the chaos and the shit show, it’s like yeah, I know how to work here.
KM: Yeah (laughs) I’m right at home, I was like, this is cool, I get it, I get it. Now there’s no way, I would be way too tired to keep up with that pace nowadays (laughs).
AD: Okay, so let’s cut to today, you’ve got interior design studios in Chicago, New York and LA currently?
KM: New York is a little bit more of like a satellite, so it’s really Chicago and LA right now.
AD: And you’re doing residential and commercial and you’ve also launched a line of stylish home essentials under the brand name KEPT. So what compelled you to get into the product business and how does that fit into your future?
KM: Well, so that ties back to my childhood, truthfully. And part of my rose colored glasses perspective on my childhood and it turns out my brother’s as well, because my brother and I are working on this product line together. We just had a really beautiful home and it was well kept and everything had a place and my mom took care of things and our utility closet was very tidy and orderly and even the products that we used, like my mom had this blue dustpan that we had literally my entire life.
Like just, you bought once, you bought well, you maintained your home, you maintained the things in it and so it was just instilled on us at a young age. And so my brother ended up in product design and he was working for more big bucks labels like designing products that would end up being the target in Bed Bath & Beyond and places like that and Container Store. And I had always been intrigued about starting this, to me it’s really like the back of house items, like nothing decorative, I don’t want to do bedding, I don’t want to do furniture, it’s not meant to be that.
It’s really just the utilitarian products that you need to maintain your home. So it’s sort of like Container Store product meets a hardware store, meets an elevated version of everything, like a restoration hardware in a way. So we’re selling -
AD: So we’re talking brooms and dustpans and vessels for soap and like hooks and storage, right?
KM: Storage and brooms and we did our own kind of scent with our hand soap and dish soap and scented vinegar and all that kind of stuff. We’ve got some kitchen stuff, aprons and tea towels, we’re coming out with a whole bunch of new products over the next, I’d say three to four months. You know, things like beautiful tape measures and things like -
AD: You are speaking my language!
KM: Yeah totally (laughter). What else are we doing? And part of it is we are manufacturing, designing and manufacturing products. So one of the pieces that we designed and had manufactured was sort of this tray that can sit out at your sink that houses hand soap and the dish soap and a sponge and a dish brush in a very nice, elegant way. If it’s going to be out, you know, it should be beautiful. And I think that’s the thing too with oh, we’re coming out with a whole pantry system and I love keeping, decanting things into glass jars and how do you organize that.
So we’re doing that kind of in the next layer of products. So it’s been super fun. It’s harder too, like I think I needed something that I had never done before. I needed a new challenge and this is definitely it. I haven’t really, I don’t know the manufacturing world the way my brother does.
AD: I mean it sounds like the hustle entrepreneur in you who is always kind of doing these kinds of projects, selling your CDs to do something (laughs) - that girl is still very much alive in this project. How is it working with your brother?
KM: It’s been cool, yeah, he’s super smart and he does the things, like it’s so funny. It’s been funny to kind of see, we’ve got a couple of other people working with us and so it’s funny to see their reaction on how Paul and I, Paul is my brother, on how we work together. And like we do, Paul loves a spreadsheet and it’s all linear and it’s like excel and I’m like, I just, I can’t even take this information in unless it looks beautiful on the page.
And then I make them put pictures on it and rearrange everything, so it’s almost like we have to have two documents (laughs), one that I can actually absorb because I can’t unless it’s visually pleasing and then one that’s like, you know, just down and dirty, like my brother likes to do it. So it’s very funny to see that kind of perspective. He’s as passionate about it as I am, which is really cool. I appreciate having someone that’s as invested as I am in the process and the project and the progress of the company. I’ve always just, after my partnership, I kind of left, wasn’t the best split and I’ve just sort of been, I have an amazing team, but the investment and sort of sticking your neck out there, I’ve just been doing it on my own. So it’s been a little scary at times. So it’s nice to have someone that’s, you know, your brother, your big brother. It’s like, you know, working with you.
AD: Yeah and he also grew up in the same house with the perfectly ordered pantry and utility closet -
KM: Oh my god, totally, so he does get that, which I love and it was so funny though because when we were like, working on branding, the branding company was like, hey, can you guys pull pictures of your house and show us these things? So Paul and I dug through photographs and we’re like, huh, well maybe it wasn’t as great as we imagined it (laughter)!
AD: Isn’t that funny, you both idealized it in the same way.
KM: Yeah, totally, it’s ridiculous. But I mean I think it’s a true testament to our parents and just raising good kids who are determined and I do think home has meant so… I think that probably ultimately is it, is that home has, they created this wonderful sense of home and it obviously has meant something to both my brother and I. And I think that’s why we want to help others with that idea.
AD: I was just having this conversation with somebody else right before you and I are talking, about how if you surround yourself with objects that don’t mean anything, then your existence is less meaningful.
KM: It’s true.
AD: Objects are vessels of meaning and if you surround yourself with objects that you love or that have meaning to you or that represent something, then your whole life is richer. But you don’t need like a bunch of meaningless objects to just dilute and confuse your head space.
KM: That’s like my biggest thing. Like I just, and even down to growing the company and what the website looks like. I’m like, it just needs to be really simple and I don’t want to have 40 different hanger types that you choose from. I think that’s what’s happened with shopping. We literally, physically can’t go into stores at the moment, but just the whole Amazoning of the world, it’s like you go on Amazon and there’s a thousand different hanger types. But who is the authority, who is telling you what’s the best hanger out there?
And who has got time to read through all of that? So to me it was like, we want to do the research, we want to figure it out for you so that when you come to KEPT, you know you’re getting stellar products. And it’s really, it’s more along the price point of Container Store, so it’s not super excessive, except okay fine, the $300 broom, which I’m sorry, I just love it!
So I put it on there and we’re getting a lot of flak for it, people are like, what, does it sweep for you? But I will say, I’ve never swept so much in my entire life (laughter).
AD: Well, so, okay, so I have not swept with your $300 broom, but I will say this about brooms is a cheaply or ineffective broom is just worthless and it’s worth zero even if you spend 20 bucks on it and a well-made broom that really sweeps well can sometimes be an object of, I mean -
KM: They can be beautiful.
AD: The craftsmanship on a good broom is really beautiful. But it’s also something, if it sweeps well, it’ll last you your whole life.
KM: Literally.
AD: And generations.
KM: Yeah, no literally, we had the same broom my entire life growing up and I felt like you know, a beautiful wood handle that ages over time, like all those things are super important in how we choose product or how we’ll choose to design product and you know, I really believe in kind of the whole ‘buy once buy well’ theory. I was actually thinking about my apartment the other day and I was looking around, I’m like, man, this place has held up.
And I totally spent too much money when I did it 12 years ago and I was just starting my company, I had no money but I put in a Christopher Peacock kitchen and I was like oh my god, I can’t believe I’m doing this, I can’t afford this but I’m gonna do it anyway. And it still looks damn good. I’m like so (laughs), I think sometimes you just, especially architecturally too, you know, the sort of things that kind of, I don’t know, that make things, I think holding up and caring for things is so important, it’s so important yeah.
AD: Well, I could see too that if you, with regard to KEPT, I mean those are the types of home essentials that you, they’re not disposable, like you move with, you bring them with you if you move you sort of, it’s that blue dustpan that you had your whole childhood
KM: Yeah, which now I wouldn’t do blue because god forbid but (laughter) -
AD: Well, you’re black and white anyway, we know -
KM: Yeah, totally neutral, just a neutral color, but yeah.
AD: So I mean, let me get a sense of your, well, your creative process, we kind of know is about marinating until there’s like a furious burst at the end, but we’ve gotten that sort of levelled out with a good team.
AD: But what, I mean what is the, within you internally, how do you know when you’re about ready to pop? How do you know when the idea is really the one you wanna run with?
KM: I think when I’m working on an interiors project, for me you got to think about where the project is, you know, what does that mean, what’s the lighting like, what’s the geographic nature of the area that you’re working in. I really start with architecture. I mean architecture of a space is so key and it has to, we do interior architecture as well as design and probably doing more and more projects where we’re doing interior architecture all the way through versus just design and decorating.
And so really getting like a space laid out, really good space planning. I know everybody is like, oh, I think there’s a story and all that kind of stuff and I just, I don’t do that. I’m always like, should I (laughter), am I the only one that doesn’t do that? I can create a story, if I’m doing a commercial project, but typically it’s more about, you know I started architecture, I think of mood, I think of how I want to feel somewhere I think of sort of what you could take as a reference. I always look at fashion, I like to look at fashion, sometimes not just for fashion, but just to look like in the background of where they might have shot something, like some beautiful house, I love doing that. And then I really just start to, I pull a lot of imagery, I think editing imagery too because you could hone in on some weird detail within a small little piece. Sometimes it’s just a material that might get me going or a rug. I definitely have designed rooms around rugs.
One of my favorite stories ever is that, I mean I hope this client would never ever hear this podcast (laughs) but she was coming from Dubai and she showed up earlier, something like that, I think, and so I hadn’t prepared anything. She was like, I’ll be there like Tuesday and it was like Friday or something and I was like shit! And so I was in my office alone, late at night and I had gotten this book on Alexander McQueen and it was all these beautiful gowns that he had designed and I was like, I’m gonna design a room based on every one of these, on a gown.
And so I started pulling palettes based on each of the gowns and then it turns into, it did turn into a story, so there you go. But it was one of my favorite pushing it to the last minute and being able to come up with something (laughs) that actually worked, so that was one of my funny stories of being a designer. In terms of other process, so then, I really love working through space plans and making, like you’ve got to think three dimensionally, even though you’re working two dimensionally and how does that room feel.
AD: I’m totally relating to this because I know a lot of people who can sort of come up with a style inspiration and they already know what furniture they want and I’m like, well where’s it gonna go though because how do you know how the space is gonna flow and if it doesn’t flow and if it blocks traffic, then it doesn’t feel right in there -
KM: Yeah.
AD: And then you got to start all over.
KM: Yeah.
AD: And part of me is like mad because I’m like hung up on the space planning part of it, you know, and they’re already working with the beauty details, I just feel like something must be wrong with my process. But then I’m like, no, because it feels wrong in here, it feels wrong!
KM: Yeah, no, I’m, I start with space planning, for sure, for sure, for sure I want things to like, yeah, there’s like a certain harmony that happens when you get beautifully laid out architecture and your layout relates to the architecture and then the sight lines. I always take my paper and turn it around so that I’m looking, you know, sometimes you can just look at the paper and you assume, and you stay with the page, whatever, with north facing up.
But then if you turn it around and you take different views of the space, things start to feel different. So you know, I like doing that and now I’ve got all these amazingly young people who can do 3D modelling in literally two seconds, so I don’t even have to do that at this point (laughs).
AD: That’s handy!
KM: Yeah.
AD: That is handy! But this is starting to make sense because there’s something about, so your projects are known for kind of edgy sophistication and a glamorous and gritty mix of materiality, refinement and irreverence, but the way that those things can come together without it feeling like chaos, with it still feeling like it has a beautiful poetry to it and that it’s very organic to its sense of place, this all really, like the fact that you do this space planning first, and because the details are so well placed.
KM: Hmm-mm.
AD: Because you’re already thinking about how the space feels in every dimension. This is really interesting. Would you call that your super power or is there something else that you think you would describe as your super power?
KM: I mean the things that get me going, that I can feel my blood rushing a little bit faster, is like getting a really beautiful layout, for sure. I love sourcing and finding new sources, which is just so impossible these days because everything is just saturated. It’s like kind of taken the fun out of the search a little bit.
AD: Yeah, the antiquer in you is like frustrated.
KM: Yeah, yeah, I used to love that and you’re like, oh my god, I finally found it, the perfect piece or whatever. I also really love now that I’ve got sort of a big team, or bigger team than I’ve really ever had and super talented people. I love sort of this editing process that I do now and letting people be creative and helping guide them. I don’t know if I ever really had anybody that did that for me necessarily.
So I want to do that for other people, so that’s been really kind of fun for me lately as I get older, with my design. But I don’t know if I have a super power.
AD: I can see that’s sort of a mentoring kind of side to it, right, and you also get the opportunity to see other people, how other people’s creativity and expression can marry with yours in a way.
KM: Yeah and I think that, I’m a firm believer, especially when you’re doing residential; it’s not my home, right? So I have to really tune into a client, I want to deliver what they want. And even if they don’t know what they want, I want to kind of help dig that out of them and get some perspective so that I can really create a home that is their dream, not mine. And I think that that’s why working collaboratively with my team instead of it just being me, it makes it a richer project. I know not everybody works that way, but I like to. (Laughter)
AD: Well, speaking of knowing what you want and clients not always knowing what they want, I mean this is sort of a segue into your personal life, I mean we’re just in an amazing time right now and by amazing I don’t necessarily mean good, I just mean historically significant in that we’re in a full-on reckoning, globally, locally, socially, economically, personally and spiritually, with the pandemic and racial injustice and you know, financial upheaval for many people. How is this affecting you or how have you been working with yourself through this turbulent time and what has been clarified for you in terms of personal meaning and purpose?
KM: Yeah, it’s been such a crazy time and so I’ve had a lot, like most people in the world, have had a lot happening in this period. And you know, it started with, we had been awarded a huge project, commercial project and we were let go from the project right at the beginning of the pandemic and the whole team had given their lives to it and it’s so heart-breaking when the client doesn’t see or appreciate that. So it started off with a professional heartbreak and that, I think, kind of goes back to that Chelsea story a little bit.
It’s like just pouring so much of your personal emotion into a project that ultimately, you don’t have 100% control over. So you’re really just kind of raw and vulnerable and I don’t know that the money guys can understand that ever. And I think I finally got that theory (laughs) with this last one. It’s been hard with the firm because we’ve had to furlough people at times and we got our PPP loan, which was stressful.
So I felt very responsible, I feel very much like we’re a family here and I don’t wanna let anybody down and so it’s a very personal responsibility that I take on, having a company of my own and employing people who have families and all that kind of stuff. So that’s been really tough. During all of this, both of my parents have been incredibly sick and in the hospital, not with Covid but nearly lost both of them, so it’s been -
AD: Oh my goodness.
KM: A crazy time. And then I think ultimately that, you know, I was workaholic and I ended up having a daughter on my own at 46, fought really hard to get her and then went right back to work, working really hard. And I think the pandemic has sort of shown me that ultimately I want to spend more time with her. You don’t get that time back and it’s been so nice not travelling (laughs) and being there every night to put her to bed.
AD: Yeah.
KM: So you know, it just made me realize, yeah, family is just, at least to me, so important and I need to and want to be more present. So when the world does come back, because I feel like, you know, we’re gonna get things straightened out, ultimately, I got to make, I got to remember that what I feel now and I need to carry that through and make sure that I’m there for my family. So that was my biggest learning lesson, that it doesn’t always have to be all work all the time, all emotions towards it (laughs) you need to kind of divvy it up for other things too.
AD: That’s a powerful one. I’ve had a few, a few friends also revel in the not being able to travel because their work just demands so much travel from them and I think what’s one of the silver linings of this, and I hope this is true for you, is that you’ll be able to, with this time where you’re not able to travel and you’ve able to set new rhythms and habits and rituals with your daughter, those will also have enough time to sort of grow and be reinforced, like both in your neural pathways and in your daily rhythms.
In such a way that you won’t have to remember, you just will not go back to your workaholism because you’ll have a new way of being.
KM: I think, okay, I’m gonna have to pay you my therapy (laughter) for the week because that’s so true. You know, I was just in the workaholic pattern and then I had her and it just, like I just went back to it because that’s what was normal and natural. And now she is normal and natural and yeah, that will be embedded and harder to move away from. So definitely I agree with that 100%.
AD: Cut to 20 years from now, what do you hope for yourself and for your daughter, is different about the world?
KM: Well, I definitely hope we get to a point where there is the equality that I think our country and the world is finally putting its foot down and trying to make the right steps. Like that would be so wonderful to see a world that embraces that.
AD: Agreed!
KM: I think in 20 years, I hope my daughter; she’ll be 23, so she won’t wanna hang out with me at that point (laughter) -
AD: She’s gonna be in the punk rock clubs just like you were.
KM: On the tables, like I’m afraid of, so (laughter), but, yeah, I hope she will let me spend as much time as I possibly can with her. And, honestly, I know this sounds bad to say but I hope I’m not working. I hope I’m retired and living on some island and maybe painting (laughter).
AD: Why does that sound bad to say? I think we’ve been conditioned to think that we’re supposed to just give our life to toil and I don’t think that that’s necessarily the way we create a beautiful, happy society. I think that’s the way we create burned out individuals. Now, clearly you said painting, so your creativity goes on but it sounds to me like building an empire isn’t necessarily where you need this to go.
KM: No, I hope either that empire has been built or you know, or it hasn’t (laughter), either way, it’s gonna be okay. I have nothing to complain about, my life is wonderful. I’m proud of myself, I adore my family and my friends and you know, so I hope all of that continues on. And I hope our world is more inclusive and a little bit more stable and (laughs) all of that. But I’m an optimist, I know we will swing back and things will be stronger and hopefully we’ll all be a little bit wiser and that good stuff. But I’ve never had a game plan, so I don’t know what I’m doing tomorrow, let alone 20 years from now (laughs).
AD: Hear! Hear!
KM: Yeah, I just kind of fly by the seat of my pants and hope it works out (laughter). Sometimes it doesn’t!
AD: Yeah, then that’s all right.
KM: It’s all good, yeah (laughs).
AD: Do you have a new project that we can take a look at or one that’s in the pipeline that will be ready soon that we should stay tuned for?
KM: I’m super excited because I have a collection coming out with CB2 which is such a cool, exciting endeavour. I’m so honored to have been asked to collaborate with the team at CB2; it’s been such an amazing experience. And we do custom furniture all the time for clients but to be able to work at that scale and just with their resources and their knowledge about manufacturing, it’s been so cool. So that’s kind of my most exciting thing that’s happening in the near future and I can’t wait until it comes out.
AD: That’s furniture, is it house ware as well?
KM: It’s furniture, so furniture and some accessories, yeah.
AD: Okay, very exciting.
KM: Yeah, super cool.
AD: Well, thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom and your trials and tribulations and your spirit. You’re fun, you’re really fun.
KM: Thanks, thanks, it was so nice, thanks for including me.
AD: Thank you for listening! To see images of Kara’s work and read the show notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to Cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. Subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Amazon or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you would please rate and review, it really does help us out. We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, you can find us at Clever Podcast and you can find me at Amy Devers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Laura Jaramillo and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk.
Many thanks to this episode’s sponsor:
Lutron
Lutron is reinventing the way you experience light with Ketra. With Lutron’s advanced lighting Ketra, you can bring the outdoors in, with light that shifts throughout the day like the sun and re-creates the warmth of incandescent lighting. View Ketra in action and get a virtual “Magic of Light” demo, live from their NYC Experience Center, plus explore projects, installations and more at podcast.ketra.com.
Kara Mann
What is your earliest memory?
Yikes, i can’t remember what I did yesterday let alone my earliest memory.
How do you feel about democratic design?
All for it.
What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?
Don’t let the highs get you too high, or the low too low. Running a business is not easy - relax and just enjoy!
Chelsea Hotel Suite
Kara Mann x CB2
How do you record your ideas?
Sketch, write, save in image folders.
What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?
Faux leather and fur. I’m glad we’re moving towards a more ethical and sustainable society. Some of the options available now feel unbelievably real.
Bathroom for Chelsea Hotel Project
Kept Brooms
What’s the best book you’ve read this past year?
Widow Basquiat by Jennifer Clements. It’s the story of Basquiat’s lover and muse. It’s a short but intense read. Their lives, both together and apart, were tumultuous and you really feel the pain. It paints quite the picture (pun intended).
Why is authenticity in design important?
I believe creativity is lacking when authenticity is lacking. The whole point of design is to be creative.
Favorite restaurant in your city?
Forever and always, Avec.
What might we find on your desk right now?
A stack of papers I haven’t looked through in probably 3 months, too many pens, a glass of water and a half finished coffee. Oh and a lot of post its. That’s what I take my notes on.
Who do you look up to and why?
I look up to any single, working mother. It’s a lot to juggle.
What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?
You’re basically asking me to choose my favorite child! Every project has something unique and special about it, or a valuable lesson learned throughout the process.
Kept Dust Pan
What are the last five songs you listened to?
the 1 - Taylor Swift
Purple Hat - Sofi Tukker
Ghost Town - Kanye
Beast of Burden - Rolling Stones
Hell N Back - Bakar
Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?
Instagram: @karamanndesign and @kept.home
Kara Mann x CB2
Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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