Ep. 173: Multidisciplinary Designer Luca Nichetto Cultivates Community and Fun
Multidisciplinary designer and art director, Luca Nichetto, grew up in Murano, Italy, steeped in the glassmaking traditions of the region and his ancestors. He got started in design by selling his drawings to local factories for pocket money. As a teenager, he became a rising basketball star and considered going pro, but eventually chose his other love, design, instead. After college and some fruitful early collaborations, he set up his own shop, Nichetto Studio, in Venice in 2006. Five years later, he opened a second studio in Stockholm. Now 15+ years in, he’s established himself as an international design force, built long-term relationships with several high-profile brands, and continually creates new connections and collaborations that build and strengthen a robust community of creatives. Plus, he knows how to have fun, and even considers it an obligation. Cheers to that!
Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Luca Nichetto. Luca is a multidisciplinary designer and art director working across a diverse array of projects including furniture, lighting, spaces, textiles, products, brands, curated exhibits, and well, anything that Luca finds interesting and pulled towards. Born in Venice, Italy, he grew up on the islands of Murano - steeped in the glassmaking traditions of the region and of his ancestors. In youth, he developed his talents for basketball and design, side by side, excelling at both, but eventually deciding on design for the professional route. After a successful start, he opened his own practice: Nichetto Studio in 2006, in his familiar home of Venice. And then, only 5 years later, and in support of his wife and starting a family, he moved to Stockholm Sweden and opened a 2nd office. He has worked with brands such as De La Espada, Foscarini, Salvatori, Hermes, Wittmann, and Steinway & Sons… among many, many others…His studio also puts out a podcast called Opinionated, and he has recently released a monograph published by Phaidon titled: Nichetto Studio, Projects, Collaborations and Conversations in Design. While his talents are undeniable, it’s his generosity of spirit that give his work it’s soul and it’s his gift for creating meaningful connections and his relentless and unapologetic quest for fun, that makes him such a force of magic… hear for yourself, here’s Luca…
Luca Nichetto: Luca: I’m Luca Nichetto, I love to say that I’m an Italian designer because I’m really proud to come from Italy. And I have two offices, one in Stockholm, where I am right now, and another one in Venice. I’m a designer and I’m designing things because I love that and it’s my way, I think, to build up communities. And I love communities.
Amy: I’ve only known you a little while, but community is definitely central to your being. Actually before we get to the center of your being, let’s go back to the beginning of your being (laughs). I really need to know about young Luca so I can understand how this Luca came to be. So take me back to your early years and tell me the story of your childhood?
Luca: So, I’m born in Venice but I grew up and raised in Murano, this little island in the Venetian Lagoon, famous for glassblowing. For me, seeing a drawing that was becoming an object was like almost going to buy a piece of bread. My grandfather was a glassblower. My mother, decorating glass, 99.99% of my friends and relatives was involved with the glass industry. People say that I was skilled in drawings and I was super fascinating of Tutankhamun, I was reading books about Tutankhamun all day. I was so attracted to the beauty of the Tutankhamun mask and drawing and re-drawing and re-drawing that. In the end when it was the moment to pick a high school, I was kind of good to convince my parents to let me study in an institute of art in Venice. And the Institute of Art at that time was one of the oldest high schools in Italy that taught, let’s say to the student, to understand different kinds of craftsmanship. So it was more than a normal high school, it was a sort of professional high school to prepare you to go to work.
Amy: A sort of craft vocational high school?
Luca: Yes.
Amy: Interesting.
Luca: And there were different sections. So you have let’s say courses or whatever, and then you have your specific workshop days on the section that you pick. And the different sections were ceramics, jewelry, textile and there was also glass. Of course I picked glass. During the summertime, when the school was finished, with my classmates, we were doing like a sort of ritual. We prepared a folder full of drawings and each of us, with this folder, grabbing this folder, we were going around Murano, knocking on the doors of the different factories to sell these drawings to them.
But now because we want to be designers, I have no idea that it exists a job like that. It was just to make money, to have fun with my friends, to go dance in this club or whatever.
Amy: Okay, the entrepreneurial part of you is kicking in early. You knew you were good at drawing and you knew these factories made things from drawings, so you just went and knocked on the door and say, “Who is in charge, will you buy my drawing?”
Luca: Yes, exactly like that.
Amy: (Laughs) What was their interest in buying your drawing? They liked it enough to turn it into a product? [0.15.00]
Luca: I’m talking about, it was end of 80s, beginning of 90s, so Murano was in a kind of much better shape than now. They needed somehow this kind of creativity and the more things they have, the more they can be exclusive somehow. Plus, I’m part of generation that my parents really pushed me every summer since I was 12 to have a summer job, just to understand if you want something, you need to have the money to get that. And if you want money, you need to work. I did many different jobs. But this one was the easiest one for me. So it was the one that came from my passion for drawings without any clue in what I was doing. I can’t call that a project, it was pure drawings. It was a way to have fun, to be honest, it was a way to have some money in the pocket and to dance with my friends. And after that, after the graduation at the high school, that was the moment to decide what to do. I forgot to tell you that I was also a very good basketball player.
Amy: Yeah, I was going to ask that, if you didn’t there. Because I want to know the trajectory on when you earnestly began developing your talent for basketball and really investing in the culture of team sports and the orchestration that goes on, on the court, I think is really interesting. So at what point did this start seeping into your consciousness and really influencing your thoughts and your physicality?
Luca: I was always one of the tallest ones when I was a kid. And my mother, she don’t like soccer, only because otherwise she needs to wash too much my uniform and stuff (laughs). So she rather… this is the truth, she rather preferred that I played basketball, it was a little bit more clean in that sense. I start to train myself on basket and later on I discovered that I was also quite good. But not… I didn’t discover by myself, I discovered mostly because other people, or other teams was asking to my parents if I can join their teams.
Amy: Oh, you were in demand.
Luca: Yeah, I was not conscious about that at all. For me it was just sport and fun with my teammates. And then the major team of Venice that was playing in the big league, they somehow trained me. And so from Murano I moved to play with the young, in this club there was the best player of the Venice area and then… so I start to know the other people, understanding what I was good to do, what I was bad to do, what I can improve, also the training was in the beginning, was two per week, then become three per week, then became five per week, then becomes six. So I was an entire week playing basketball. And it was beautiful on one side, extremely hard to the other side because I see all my friends have fun, meeting girls, hanging out, dating with many girls [0.20.00] that I liked, but I can never have any chance because I was training myself.
And so I find in a way, a sort of dedication in what I was doing. I was extremely focused. If I don’t have fun with my friends, at least I need to be very good in what I’m doing.
Amy: You were aware of what you were sacrificing and you were channeling that energy.
Luca: And that moment was also the moment that I realized a sort of leadership route that the teammates gave to me. Not because I was the best player but they listened to me. When I protect them, they appreciate that. When I insult another play of the other team, they protect my back. So there was a sort of chemistry that you start to realize is there. And then later, I’m talking when I was almost a teenager, I was arriving almost to the site, I want to be professional and there was a chance to that. Or I go in the direction of my skills, let’s say what I want to do in terms of education. Because I knew at that time that to do the two things together was impossible. Impossible for me because…
Amy: Because they required so much dedication.
Luca: Exactly, And then also for this mindset that I developed to be very focused in one thing that I want to do. And I don’t like to lose. (Laughter) And then I understand, seeing also with my teammates, I realized that I was good, but not enough good to be one of… not only professional player, but one of the best professional players. I think if I can’t be like that, let’s try to be to the other side. And that was the moment that I start to check what kind of university, where to go to study. I don’t want to study architecture because for me it was super boring and I visualize architecture not for the beauty that you can do architectural projects, but mostly was not the outlook. Because I see only geometrical lines and people drawing like in a CAD plan and that was not really me.
Amy: Yeah, it’s very abstract for a very long time. Few architects actually get to realize glorious buildings.
Luca: Yeah and then there was the art academy. I don’t want to be an artist; I don’t see myself as a painter or as a sculptor. And then I discovered that at the University of Venice they start a new program that was called ‘design industrial,’ industrial design. So I started to read through the program, the description of the program and it’s not so bad (laughter). And this is also close from where I live. I can stay here, my friends are here, let’s try it out, let’s give a shot to that. And the first six months was a trauma.A big trauma. I want to quit. I really want to quit. It was so boring, it was horrible. It was about learning 3D modelling. There was the first 3D studio that for to do our rendering you need to open the computer and leave the computer work for five days to have a picture like that.
Amy: Oh, right, right, yeah. That was rough.
Luca: Yeah and then they teach me what is a pixel [0.25.00], what is a byte. Something that for me was completely useless. And then there was another professor about material and process. It was too abstract, so there was not really, okay, I understand this process and where I apply that. So there was no connection. Thank god my exam, after this first semester was okay. And then gave me a little bit of energy to say, okay, let’s try to finish at least the first year and then I will take a decision.
And the second semester there was two old professors both of them were retired, but they teach for passion. And one was Antonio D’Avanzo, he was the former assistant of Carlo Scarpa in Venice. And the second one was Vittorio Rossi that was the former assistant of Franco Albini in Venice. So these two old men opened the biggest door ever for me that was not teach me nothing. They just make me curious and that was the trigger that really pushed me to be focused in industrial design, to be curious.
Amy: And how did they help that, how did they encourage your curiosity?
Luca: (Laughs) Antonio D’Avanzo taught me interior architecture and I was sketching all the time to do these projects. I was sketching the bricks, everything. And I remember that he was passing through the different, let’s say desks where we were drawing. And when he came to my desk, he stopped, he stopped there. He took a pencil that was on my desk and he hurt me so bad with this pencil in my head. And I look at him (laughs) and I say…
Amy: He just flapped you with the pencil, like on the side of your head?
Luca: Yeah.
Amy: Okay (laughs).
Luca: And I looked at him and I said, sorry, what is the reason? And he looked at me and said, it’s pretty clear that you are talented, but you are not checking, you are not reading books. You are not checking how a section of a metal profile is done. You need to read this book, you need to go visit this metal supplier, that was the supplier of the [** 0:28:13]. He started to give me all, a bunch of tips. And I said, oh, thank you professor, apart from my head, but the rest is fine now. And this kind of attention also kind of rude one, but once someone is rude with you, sometimes it’s because he really cares. So I went to the metal supplier, it was an old man called Zanon that showed me all the profiles, how he was welding etc.
Amy: I love that you remember his name.
Luca: Yeah, I learned so much from these people, much more than what I learned at university to be honest. And so this was the first situation that really pushed me to be curious. And Vittoria Rossi was more theoretical in a way. More human centered. Everything was very humanistic, was not in doing things, but was more thinking about who we are as a human being.
Amy: Why we do things, what we need, how we meet those needs, yeah.
Luca: Exactly and that was also another trigger because I never asked that question to myself before. And so that to say, oh wow, that is good, it’s fun, two old men that is around 80s are the most younger ones inside this university. So then I decided to continue. And I decided to continue also my ritual of knocking the doors of the different factories in Murano until it was the year before my graduation, I have an old friend of mine that was working for Salviati, that was one of the most prestigious brands in Murano at that time.
And Salviati was collaborating with artists like Anish Kapoor, there was Thomas Heatherwick, there was Ross Lovegrove, there was Ingo Maurer, Alessandro Mendini, Tom Dickson. So a lot of people that I was studying in a way, or observing what they were doing in magazines etc. they were working for Salviati. Salviati, thanks to an introduction of my old friend, Dario, and he introduced me to the art director of the company it was Simon Moore. Simon is from England and he was a professor at the Royal College of Art. I present to Simon my famous folder full of drawings and Simon thought, oh wow, I like it, I will buy everything.
And I said, wow, my summer will be amazing. And then I said, I don’t need to go with other tour, it’s done, perfect. But then he told me a sentence that changed my life. Because he told me, it’s pretty clear that you are talented, but it’s also clear that you don’t understand nothing of what a company needs. But…I want to show you respect for your talent, but I want to ask you only if you want, because I know that you are from Murano. If you have time, you can pass here in the factory once a week or twice per week and I’ll explain to you what we need. And so…
Amy: Whoa, that’s an incredible opportunity.
Luca: Yeah, so my first reaction was, who is this crazy guy that spends money (laughs) and then he wants to also teach me how to do things. It’s like okay, that is cool, let’s try. So I start to, every week,visiting the factory and I met all these guys that I mentioned before. First one was Ross Lovegrove, then I met Ingo Maurer and Tom Dixon, Anish Kapoor and it was amazing. It was amazing, they were like heroes for me. Physically there, all of them were so nice with me, all of them. I was asking immediately advice. I remember to Ross I was asking, Ross, listen, if I want to work for [** 0:34:19], what do I need to do? (Laughter)
And he looked at me and he said, are you crazy? Maybe you can start with another company you know? (Laughter) But all of them were so nice and what for me was incredible was also to have the chance, as a young student, designers, whatever I was, to observe the different personalities and the different output and how they present themselves when they present ideas. So there was people presenting sketches, people presenting beautiful rendering, other technical drawings, others just talking, others just sketching on the floor.
So it was interesting for me to see this incredible variety of output. And so I continued with my, I call it my PhD, but it was not a PhD. (Laughter) And six months before to finish my study at college, finally I had the chance to receive the first brief from Simon where he was asking me to use an ancient technique that was creating bubbles inside the glass. And to design a new collection of vases. So I designed this guy, this…
Amy: Listeners can’t see that Luca (laughs).
Luca: I know, I know, I designed this collection of vases called Millebolle that means thousand bubbles, like an Italian song. And this collection become quickly the bestseller of the company. That was the moment where for the first time I hear about royalties and contract. (Laughs) And Simon was telling me, if you want that we pay you for these products, you need to sign a contract and you need to be able to invoice us. And I say, how can I do that, I have no idea (laughs). So I started to inform myself about that. I opened my freelance position only for that reason. And when I opened my freelance position, I realized that fuck it, I need to finish college and now I’m starting paying taxes by myself even before that I finish my graduation. And that was the moment that I realized that I need to work hard and finding another project.
Amy: So the royalties that were streaming in from their most successful product was just a taste of the sort of business structure that you knew you were going to need to build in order to be sustainable in the design world?
Luca: Yeah, I have no idea about any kind of business. I was totally naïve and probably, I really liked this motto of learning by doing. And even more in what we are doing, I think it’s a perfect motto. And this is how I built my career. I did a lot of mistakes, a lot.
Amy: Ooh, ooh, I love a good mistake story, tell me a mistake?
Luca: I don’t know how to start it, trusting the first person that approached me to design a chair and designing the chair, giving the project, helping him to find the supplier etc. etc. without any form of contract.
Amy: Oh yeah, that’s a tough one, got to learn that!
Luca: And then the chair is gone, including also my names and my copyright, everything. Then other mistakes, starting a collective studio with other designers without really know each other properly and figuring out that we were so different that in the end we were almost close to destroy our friendship for this job.
Amy: Wow, okay, those are rough lessons to learn, but really important ones as well.
Luca: Yeah, yeah, absolutely and I don’t regret that this happened because after that I was much more objective in what to pick and what to say maybe not, it’s not the right moment or let’s sign a contract before starting everything else. But there were also successes that sort of propelled up you to the point of starting your own studio. So where did you get your traction from and how did you keep growing your passion for the field, even while it’s not easy and you’re making these mistakes that are setbacks, but good ones?
Luca: I think I have a disease that I’m not able to stay for a long time in my comfort zone. I always want to jump out of my comfort zone.
Amy: You have an itchy soul, that’s what I call it. (Laughs)
Luca: I was always attracted for things that I never experienced. And on every level. This really pushed me to explore, different opportunities, different typologies, I remember when I had the opportunity, I was working with Cassina, it’s a dream for a lot of designers and especially for Italians.
Amy: Yeah.
Luca: And I was pretty young. But the same year that I started to work with them, there was a tiny startup that approached me. It was 2012, it was a young, let’s say distributor in China that asked me to design their building, their showroom. And I said, guys, but you know that I’m not an architect? They said yes, but you can do it and so I jumped (laughter), I was travelling to Beijing once every two weeks and after three months there was a building designed by us. I don’t think it’s a great building, but I did a building.
Amy: Yeah, (laughter) good thing you didn’t go to architecture school, it would have taken you so much longer to get something built.
Luca: So I don’t know, I think there is, at the end, a lot of gut feeling, right? You need to trust your instinct and sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad, but at least you trust yourself. And then it’s so fun, because this pushes you in a direction that is not just collecting names in a portfolio or cool collaboration or whatever. But this is really like having the opportunity to work for big brands or very interesting brands or with brands that nobody knows or doing fashion, doing architecture, working in Botswana. So these kinds of things for me are altogether… I don’t judge what I’m doing to a single product. I like to see the whole package (laughs).
Amy: The aerial view, the macro.
Luca: this is my project, it’s not a single one, but it’s the entire things. So this is my universe, let’s say.
Amy: You know, I think a lot of people take a lot longer to get to that point, to recognize that they are actually the architects of their own lives and creating this universe of interesting projects, of people you like to work with. Of adventurous deals and design challenges to get involved in. Does require a kind of improvisational, instinctual speed of decision making, of understanding. Do you think any of that came from basketball?
Luca: No, I think it’s coming mostly from the glass industry. Because glass is a beautiful material, it’s magic. It’s liquid. So it’s a sort of honey that crystalizes through the touch of the people. So you need to create a relationship with the glass blower that is in the front of thousand degrees (laughs) and you need to be able to transfer to this person what is your idea. Accepting the compromise because it will never be exactly what you want, but will be very close. And even more, you need to have a process of decision making so quick because in one second, if you don’t say stop, the shape is different.
Amy: Yeah, it’s very time sensitive.
Luca: For sure. So I think this kind of lesson is probably connected to what we were talking before. But it’s not only that, I need to tell you one thing that not many people know. I was coming to New York many times for different clients and once I was with one of my clients and he was telling me that he was working with a life coach. And I said, a life coach? It means someone that is doing sort of therapy session with you to help you? He said, kind of, a person that will help you to be more focused in the moment that you need to deal with many situations. I said that’s interesting, that a professional person, manager, was working with a life coach to help him deal with business problems etc.
So I come back to Europe and I was starting to think, I have an accountant that is a consultant. I have a lawyer who is a consultant. I have a PR that sometimes is a consultant. Maybe I need a consultant also for this. It’s nothing bad. So I call this friend of mine, I said, can you give me the name. Her name is Osie, she’s based in New York. And I start to work with her three and a half years ago, approximately. And she really, really helped me in…
Amy: Wow, how so?
Luca: I mean she was so good to bring my frustration with my team, with my clients. I was going the route that now, if I’m looking back, why was I so crazy? I was crazy because I was in a washing machine. I was not able to…
Amy: Thinking in circles, yeah.
Luca: So she was so good in saying, you’re good, there’s nothing bad, you just need to think about… it’s not always responsibility of other people. Depending on how you create a relationship with other people, how you ask things, how you feel things, how you cut maybe some relations, how you negotiate. So we started to work in different methods, first with my internal team, after how I can deal with the client. And of course also with my private life. Because it’s connected.
Amy: Yeah, it’s all intertwined and of course anything you learn about relating to others in your studio, of course applies to relating to others at home, your most intimate relationships.
Luca: This helped me a lot, especially during Covid. And because she really told me and said, now is your time. I said for what, to do what? She said, yeah, you were complaining that you were always travelling, that you don’t have time to draw anymore etc. now is your time. And then I say, fuck, you are right, it’s my time. Finally I can go back to doing what I love most. In fact the two years of Covid, for me, was probably the two best years in terms of creativity.
Amy: Oh, I’m so happy to hear that.
Luca: I was somehow… creating or healing myself through the trauma that was outside, to creating things.
Amy: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Luca: So I was happy, I have my schedule, I have my team [sync 0:50:21] and of course in the beginning I was worried about the economical situation, how I can deal with that and that. But when I figured out that I can survive at least two years with the savings that I have, then I say, if in two years I’m not able to figure out the situation, it’s correct that I’m going bankruptcy.
Amy: (Laughter) Accept it. Sort of like, well, if you let the glass cool too fast or drop it, it’s going to shatter (laughs).
Luca: But yeah, Osie was my star in a way. A lot of good things that we were able to do recently is for sure thanks also to her.
Amy: I’m really happy that you told this story because I think there is a misconception out there about how we need to do things ourselves. I mean we’re starting, I think, to understand mental health a little bit better and give that more space in the public dialogue. But I think it’s impossible and stupid for us to think that you could go to design school and learn to be a designer, but not learn about the design business, which is something you had to figure out on your own.
Not learn how to be necessarily a manager, run a studio, have all these relationships, keep all of these projects and balls in the air and know how to do that perfectly. We do need training in that regard and I think that you telling this story also probably alleviates, like I feel a collective sigh or relief around the world, of people listening and realizing, oh, I just need help. It’s not that I’m supposed to know how to do all of this or that I’m supposed to be good at every aspect of all of this, I just need help.
Luca: First I agree 300% with you. And second, I think the design worked for a long time, since probably [** 0:52:51] up here, celebrate the designer as the face of the object. As the human that creates that object. Especially in the 90s, a generation older than me, become a sort of superstar. A little bit what happened in the fashion with the supermodel. And the truth is that push might be in each of us to be very isolated, to think only about our little, let’s say kingdom. And drive by how many publication we have, how much successful you are, successful that I don’t understand, by the way, from who is [famous 0:53:47], say if you’re successful or not. And without a consider that you can be that kind of person in a community that appreciates what you are doing. And this community is the one that supports you or not. And right now I think it’s the moment to support each other. Because that era is gone.
Amy: Hallelujah! Amen! Preach! I think that without a kind of collective discourse, that is centered in… of course celebrating each other, but also holding each other accountable, not only do we strengthen our community and our connective tissues, but we also elevate the field and the craft and it’s power to actually be a healing agent [0.55.00] in society as opposed to an extractive agent. It can be generative and healing if we place a lot of the power in this equitable exchange of intellect, emotion, creative labor and discourse.
Luca: Yeah, but the thing Amy, I think also there was a lot… I think… I agree with you. I think it’s absolutely what we need to do, but there’s still a bit, for my taste, a little bit too much hypocrisy
Amy: That’s part of the holding each other accountable, right?
Luca: We need action, we need to be accessible to people. And what I’m saying is that there is no problem for me to invite friends of mine to work with my clients, also if I’m not the art director. And we are different, we are different people, we are doing different things and I rather prefer… I have a friend working with the same client than to have an enemy, for example.
We need to talk much more openly about many things. How that client treats you, how much they pay. Just to balance the thing. If you keep these secrets, then there is non-negotiation that will allow us, especially the young generation, to step up, to really be able to live with this profession.
Amy: Agreed, if we sort of protect that information, which is culturally, we’ve been programed to do, we also keep ourselves in a position of less power, than if we share that information. If we help to actively engage in the distribution of resources, including that kind of information. And as you are so generous, your clients, actually connecting your clients to other designers that you have already vetted for their integrity and their talent and their ability to deliver.
Luca: I think it’s a karma in a way, because when you’re doing that, at the end of the day, in one year, in three years, in five years, this is coming back to you. In one way or another. Maybe not with a new client, but maybe with something else. And think about also, if we are thinking more into the business side, now we are a small studio, because most of the designers are, let’s say small studios. I have a studio in Stockholm and one in Venice. We are eight/nine people and most of my clients, of course, is around Europe and then of course I have clients in the States, in Asia etc. But if I’m partnering with other studios in Asia or other studios in the States, it would be also more sustainable because I don’t need to travel (laughs).
Amy: Oh yeah, good point! (Laughs)
Luca: But not only for the sustainability point of view, it can be very interesting… I mean [** 0:58:56], it’s an association of different studios of architecture that when they need to do bigger projects, they work together. When they need to do smaller projects, they work separately. Think about things in a bigger scale in terms of design studios, friends, people that are sharing things. You can have an impact in the work.
Amy: Yes, you can have much bigger impact.
Luca: 100%, so I don’t know if this would never happen, but I like to think that I’m… I like at least to try to create this kind of connection and let’s see what happens. But I really enjoy connecting people.
Amy: As I was researching you and looking into the way you work, it seems to me that that connecting of [1.00.00] dots, of people, of capabilities, of yeah, various aspects of the whole project. But mostly the relationships that connecting is kind of your specialty.
Luca: I love people.
Amy: (Laughs) Well, that’s good.
Luca: There are some people that obviously I don’t love, to be honest. (Laughs)
Amy: I’m glad you’re discerning, that’s important (laughs).
Luca: But I like really to… I mean on a sort of level… and I’m glad to be considering that level, we are all equally talented. So if you’re able to recognize the talent, the talent is always different from your talent. As I say, we are different people. So one plus one is not equal to two, but is equal to three. So if this, you work with this idea and you connected the result, it will be always more amazing than what you can do alone.
Amy: It’s the power of compound interest (laughs).
Luca: Probably this I learned playing basketball. Everyone has a different role and when you put this… you can’t have a team with only stars.
Amy: Well, the assist and the rebounds are just as important as the baskets, yeah.
Luca: And also the guy that is sitting on the bench for 39.8 minutes, they play 20 seconds, the 20 seconds can be the most important 20 seconds of the game. It’s just so fascinating for me to see what can happen connecting people. It’s like a physical brainstorming, the things taking shape. And it’s creating an object, it’s creating a sonography, it’s creating an installation… by the way, when you have a studio with people in the studio, it’s not only my job, it’s also the work of the other people in my studio that somehow influence myself.
Amy: Of course, yeah. All those perspectives.
Luca: People from different cultures. I see things in a way but a person from the States sees it in a different way or a person from Asia or China in another way. And you need to train yourself not in judging, no, that is right or that is wrong. But just say okay, that’s a different angle and appreciate the different angle. I think at the end of the day you will be a better person, not a better designer, but a better person.
Amy: I agree 150,000%. That’s something that was, I think, readily apparent when I met you and thank you again for participating in our Emerging Designer Showcase and sharing your wisdom with emerging designers. I think that was really cool of you. But what I noticed about you personally is your… it’s a kind of generosity of spirit. But even more than that, you scan your environment and people that you meet for their promise, for their interest, for their best qualities and you seem to find those rather than looking for their flaws or shortcomings or sort of snap judgement of their character. And in doing so, I think you also see the world around you in a much more richer, technicolor, vibrant way because you’re appreciating the humanity of everyone.
Luca: yes and no.
Amy: Oh okay, what’s the no?
Luca: The no I also sometime jump into the judging people [1.05.00] from maybe a designer, maybe for something that I don’t like or a journalist has asked me a very boring question. Or people that maybe the people that just use a tone of voice that I don’t like. But immediately after this feeling of disliking… I try to look, say okay, fine, let’s look what I like. And I always, as you say, try to find the positive side because I’ve learned by doing and I learn by mistakes, that if I’m not in this kind of mood in appreciating people and being…
I don’t want to abuse the word ‘happy,’ but to be in a sort of serene, I’d say in a good mood. I’m not able to do my job. I’m not a good person because I have this grey shade on me. And I’m not able to have fun and for me, as I said in the beginning, to consider myself, and what I’m doing, a sort of privilege, you need to have fun, it’s an obligation. For me it’s an obligation to have fun. It’s an obligation to see the good in people. There is no time to put my energy in negative things.
Amy: It is an energy drain.
Luca: It’s destroying you.
Amy: With that in mind, can you give me a snapshot of what’s going on in your studio currently? I would like to know the aerial view? You’ve got a bunch of different projects going on. You’re kind of a creative or art director for a bunch of different brands. And your creative role in that is as much a designer as it is a connector and manager. Can you give me a snapshot of what your life looks like?
Luca: Honestly, right now it’s a mess because (laughs) we are…
Amy: Yeah [in 1:07:57] Milan. (Laughter)
Luca: Exactly. But apart the mess of preparing Milan, we are working in many… mostly in the furniture field, that’s still one of our main, let’s call it market or output. Then we… so for in Milan, for example, we are going to do an installation for [** 1:08:32], that is a French brand that I’m art directing inside the museum, Poldi Pezzoli. Then we are doing one of our favorite projects because it’s connecting dots.
Amy: Yeah.
Luca: An installation with a brand that is called [** 1:08:57]. It’s the oldest producer in the world of wool textile for high end tailor shops and fashion brands.
Amy: Wow!
Luca: With them we are creating fantastic [wool?] that is sort of gentleman club where there is nine anthropomorphic lamps, that still symbolize hypothetical characters that are going to these gentleman clubs, like detective or a teacher or a musician or the businessman. And these lamps are dressed using the textile of the brand with their clothes, the dress to represent the character of that specific…
Amy: Ooh, you’re not afraid of character [1.10.00] and story, that’s for sure.
Luca: No, I like to do storytelling projects, for sure. In this case, it’s almost more than the object or the sonography was more really to create a story, an experience. And then we have the booth for Wittmann and a bunch of products for Wittmann that is an Austrian brand that we are art directing. In New York we present our first outdoor kitchen. In Italy we are presenting our first kitchen for Scavolini.
And then we have so far a chair… that is also another project that is cool, it’s a chess set, but it’s a chess set that is called Flirt. It’s assembling different typology of products, like a chair, a table, a chess set and lamps, you create a bubble. You create an environment almost, just putting these objects together.
Amy: A world of sorts.
Luca: Yeah and we did that for Salvatori. And then we are working the music industry and as you know, because you know (laughs)…
Amy: Yes, tell me about the Steinway collaboration?
Luca: Yeah, that is (laughs)… we are going to launch a piano, a limited-edition piano with Steinway & Sons during the fall. And the Steinway collaboration born in a funny way. Because I landed in New York, I take a picture and I post in my Instagram with let’s say it was: Good morning New York, or something like that. And then I take a cab to go to Marc Thorpe and Claire place and I was bored in the cab with the traffic and checking everything that I can in my phone. And I checked LinkedIn and I saw a message from Robert Polan. I was really surprised, a custom piano for Steinway & Sons that was asking me for an appointment, or a [café 1:12:47] because he saw my post on Instagram.
Amy: Oh, so he’d been following you and saw that you were in New York and so…
Luca: Yeah, yeah and then I said yes straightaway. The day after I met him, and they asked about how you… why you text me… and he told me that he was scouting for a while some potential designer for Steinway and my name pops different times from different people in his router. And when he started to follow me, the day after I, I was in New York.
Amy: Oh wow, kismet, yeah.
Luca: So it was pure coincidence. He asked me if I want to try and there was no commitment. And I said, this is one lifetime project, of course I would try. And I tried, he liked it and then there was some correction to do. So there was a little bit of up and down in the beginning. And then he really liked my way also, that we were talking of connecting people and suggesting, working with this one. So in the end he asked me also to be a sort of consultant as a sort of creative director/consultant for the custom piano. And so right now, part of the piano I’m also doing this consultancy and Robert, become also a friend. So…
Amy: Yeah, and I read something in your book, where you said something along the lines that the friendship is the engine that drives the work, or that powers the work. [1.15.00] And I thought that was really beautiful because it speaks to the nature of wanting, when you’re truly invested in somebody else, you want to be your best and do your best work with them. And for them. And it also empowers the work with a kind of joy of community. And I don’t know, it just really resonated with me when I read that because it really did feel to me like you’re not just a client or a designer. You are kind of making this large family around the world. And that’s beautiful.
Luca: Oh, thank you. Yeah, that is true. I worked with people that I was not able to build a relationship and the result was always shit. But maybe it’s because of me. I can’t work with someone that I don’t feel ‘trustness’ and a relation that we are building something together, we are partners in crime, in a way.
Amy: Yeah.
Luca: And we have also fun together and when there are bad moments, we will help each other. When there are good moments, we celebrate together and for me, for example, when I was in New York a couple of weeks ago and I had a chance to see the, the prototype, the piano for the first time…
Amy: Woohoo, how exciting!
Luca: Yes. For me one of the most beautiful things was going in a bar in Brooklyn with the team of Rob and my team and singing karaoke. That for me is exactly how also the guys in my studio built a relationship with the guys in Steinway. And that is amazing. It’s even more amazing than the piano himself, because the piano is a result of things, not the other way around.
Amy: So quick back story question. Do you believe your work with Osie also helped for you to build this friendship with Rob? Luca: It was Rob who introduced me to Rosie. Isn’t that amazing, okay. Your friendship is also based on this mutual desire to be the best people you can be and so of course there’s going to be some respect there, if you can see the other person working on overcoming their challenges or shortcomings.
Luca: Yes, but I think it’s also dedicating your time and your network to people. For example, I remember just before Covid I had a trip in the States, first New York and then me and Rob, we flew together in Los Angeles. And we went to Pasadena and Beverly Hills, checking the Steinway & Sons showrooms, meeting the management there. And then there was a party in Hollywood, [** 1:19:09]. And I received the invitation and so I said to Robert, come with me.
So that was a very beautiful moment because we were both in a way out of our routine. And was a way also to enjoy the time together in a beautiful occasion and talking about design. There were some of my pieces that I designed for [** 1:19:48] there. So I was showing to him these… there was our common friend, Maggie that was there…
Amy: Yes, Maggie! Shout out to Maggie! (Laughs)
Luca: So it was beautiful [1.20.00]. And I think in the end relationship and in our job you [feel also truth is kind of situation?] Not only when you are working on something.
Amy: Yeah, so you were not just working on something, you were actually experiencing life together.
Luca: Yes, yeah, I tried to do all the time, to be honest (laughter).
Amy: Some people just have their head in the sand. Now I mean experiencing life is sort of way too general, because of course that’s what we’re all doing every day. But when you are in this relationship that’s a professional one, and you get a chance to mix it up in a way that exposes other sides of your world to each other. I do think it helps to facilitate the deepening of the mutual intimacy.
Luca: Yes, but it’s also, could be also very fragile moment because you are open.
Amy: Vulnerable.
Luca: You are very vulnerable and you need to learn really to stay open because this is very easy to put [** 1:21:32] after that you, or someone [asks?] you a couple of times. So you need to keep going, it’s a circle exercise to stay open and with the risk that sooner or later someone will hurt you, but you need to look at the positive side. There is much well a positive side than the bad one.
Amy: What’s the positive side?
Luca: The positive side is that in the end if you’re open, you build with people that really care, deeply. It doesn’t matter what you are doing. And the bad side is there would be some asshole that (laughs) don’t understand that.
Amy: There’s always an asshole. Always an asshole creeps into the mix (laughs).
Luca: There is always, but that you need to consider that is part of our life. There will be always someone that hurts us. It’s like… and thanks god there are these people because then you can show that they were wrong or maybe they were right but for you they were wrong and you move on. So it’s also… they can also be a trigger to be a better person.
Amy: Absolutely and they can also teach you a lot about your power to heal yourself from the hurt.
Luca: 100%.
Amy: So I want to talk about your book because it’s really refreshing. First of all, it’s your first monograph, it’s recently released by Phaidon, it’s called Nichetto’s Studio: Projects, Collaborations and Conversations in Design. And I particularly appreciate the conversations part. I know that as designers we’re all accustomed to beautiful object porn and glossy photos. But you kind of took us inside your process and showed us a chronologue of your projects, but also the sketches and some of the contextual information that led to it.
But then you also, through the two co-authors, you also included your relationships and those connections and those relationships and how they informed you at that stage in your life. I think it just tells a very honest story of who you are and that honesty, I think, helps to connect with the work. And there are also some really important lessons that are in there that I think is really interesting. A lot of the conversations also kind of [1.25.00] give us a window into various aspects of the industry that isn’t necessarily always visible and that’s fascinating. But it also helps us see a window into your soul and the things that matter to you and how you’ve evolved as a person and as a practitioner.
And so the book feels like it has a lot of heart and I found myself really, skipping past the pictures and getting right into the text, (laughs) which is kind of the opposite for most design books. Not that the pictures aren’t great, they’re glorious, but the text was just, just such a wonderfully honest and transparent picture of you. And I think that’s incredibly vulnerable and important to be that way in a book like that so that we can have an actual contextual reference point for what it takes to do what you do.
Luca: I appreciate that you catch that side because it’s really what I want to achieve with this book. It’s built as a diary, like when you are a teenager, that you are collecting the pictures of your heroes or whatever, and you put in your diaries. But through my project, I want to show also the dirty side of design practice because a lot of times people are talking about us as a brand.I’m not a brand.
Amy: Nor are you a machine. Yeah, no, sometimes they talk about labor as machines too and that really sort of irritates me because creative labor is not mechanized.
Luca: No and you can be a brand, being yourself, and I think it’s the easiest way, for me at least. There are other colleagues of mine that are fantastic, they build up a sort of character of themselves that is the public face of them and then privately they’re another person. I don’t know how to do that. I was always thought that’s a double personality I think in doing that, I will be bipolar. I don’t know. So I’m not able to do that kind of exercise.
So I say, doing this book, I want really to give a sort of context of the moment when I was operating and the moment that I was doing a sort of project and the people that help me to do that because without them, I would never be able to do that. Also talking about the sort of topics was, I hope, that a young designer or someone that is looking at this beautiful work of design because it’s amazing…
Amy: Yeah, it is.
Luca: Can be inspired by some adventure of myself and think, and say, oh shit, you can do things also in a different way. You can have your own path. You don’t need to be that city or that other one. So do your things and be yourself. The book is really born and developed as a project. I just prepared the ingredients and then I give the ingredients to Max Fraser and Francesca Picchi, that are friends, and then Henri who is the graphic designer. So we worked together.
But I don’t want to be the designer that is doing the book by himself, so he’s trading the book as a catalog of the macho performance that he has. So I say, guys, this is what I did. Now you need to judge me and pick what for you is good and I will be totally fine with that. Because this is what I want.
Amy: I mean in many ways that’s a more accurate assessment, is how you’re perceived by the outside world than how you see yourself. [1.30.00] I mean…
Luca: Exactly, so otherwise why you need to do a book where I’m talking with myself?
Amy: (Laughs) Yeah, that sounds to me, that sounds so boring. Not you talking to yourself, but if I had to just create something by talking to myself, I would just really go crazy.
Luca: Yeah, well, just a couple of hours ago I was checking the press release that we need to add to our newsletter and I was bored to read about myself.
Amy: (Laughs)
Luca: I don’t know, maybe it sounds very, I would say, hypocrisy… what I’m saying, but I’m bored about that. I grew up to have someone that came a couple of days in my studio and described what I did without that I need to say nothing because that in the end is what the normal people really will understand.
Amy: Yes, well that’s very self-aware of you. You have exciting projects coming out your studio, it feels like it’s thriving and healthy. Are you still working with Rosie?
Luca: Yeah.
Amy: That part of your life is on track. What would you want more of? What are you hoping for? Where would you point yourself for the future?
Luca: I think next step would probably be doing something that for a long time I did for the others and probably I would do more exploring fields that I never explored before, I will keep going for sure.
Amy: Yeah?
Luca: And then probably I’d love one day to do a little brand, a little company. But not with the goal to become another [Moet 1:32:17] as Marcel did, or another Tom Dickson, not with that goal. I want to do something like a little gem. Something very tiny, but very special in terms of objects without having limitation, would be limited, would be gallery pieces or would be serious pieces, would be fashion, would be eyewear, would be fragrances, I don’t care. I want to do something that would also be a new recipe to do a cake. I just love the idea to do something that is a celebration of creativity and run by myself.
Amy: I like that! Small, special projects that celebrate creativity and become something meaningful that somebody else can work with or…
Luca: And then invite all my friends, including you.
Amy: (Laughs) Oh, I’m in, I’m already thinking about what I’m going to contribute yeah. Luca, you are a force of magic, thank you for sharing your story and you know, just your generosity of spirit with me, I really, really appreciate it.
Luca: Thank you Amy, it was super nice talking with you and I really hope to see you soon.
Amy: Thank you for listening! To see images of Beat, his work and learn more about him, read our show post: click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. We love it when you take the extra step to rate and review - it really does help us out! We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook - you can find us @cleverpodcast. You can find me, @amydevers. Clever is hosted & produced by me, Amy Devers. With editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven.
What is your earliest memory?
My earliest memory is probably when I used to walk with my dad and my mom in the Dolomites - exactly at Domegge di Cadore - to go to buying zucchini to the near countryside farmer.
Nichetto LaManufacture Melitea
ET AL Bloom
How do you feel about democratic design?
I think that the use of the word democratic from design community is wrong. For years this word has been used with the meaning of “cheap” while my idea is that all kind of design are democratic - both low and high hand - as they are for everyone.
What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?
“Breath, don’t want everything immediately”
How do you record your ideas?
I developed a very simply way: when I got an idea, I tried to not put it down immediately. I let it stay in my brain for at least 24 hours. If the following day I still have the same idea, then probably it’s a good one. If I forget about that, than means that it was not a good one.
Salvatori - Flirt + Teo
Scavolini - Jeometrica
What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?
Porcelain
Vitale Barberis Canonico
Vitale Barberis Canonico Laphroaig
What book is on your nightstand?
The Motorcycles Diaries - Ernesto “Che” Guevara
Why is authenticity in design important?
We are author as first, and as author we are different, exactly as we are different as persons. This diversity is richness for who will use your products / services.
Favorite restaurant in your city?
Pelican, Stockholm
What might we find on your desk right now?
Paper, laptop, pen and coffee
Who do you look up to and why?
Michael Jordan. His famous quote about the importance of failure is always with me.
Nichetto Studio: Projects, Collaborations and Conversations in Design available at phaidon.com. Texts by Max Fraser and Francesca Picchi. Phaidon. (pages 62-63)
Nichetto Studio: Projects, Collaborations and Conversations in Design, available at phaidon.com.
What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?
Impossible to choose one, it’s like choosing your favorite stars in the sky.
What are the last five songs you listened to?
China girl - David Bowie
Purple rain - Prince
Shallow - Lady gaga
Gold - Spandau ballet
Always on my mind - Pet shop boy
Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?
Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.
Ep. 174: Colony Founder Jean Lin on Balancing Bravery and Recklessness
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