Ep. 165: Talking Shop with Podcast Powerhouse Avery Trufelman

Brooklyn-based podcaster Avery Trufelman has radio in her DNA. Her parents met while working at WNYC, so from birth she was nurtured with love and appreciation for radio. As a teenager, Avery took to expressing herself through wild, quirky thrifted fashion ensembles, much to the confusion of her peers. After cutting her audio teeth in college radio, Avery submitted a midnight application to intern at 99% Invisible and moved across the country to work in a closet with Roman Mars in “beautiful downtown Oakland.” When 99pi and the field of podcasting blew up, Avery was on the rocket ship. She’s since created an acclaimed 2-season series, Articles of Interest, around iconic items of clothing – which makes her teenage sartorial obsessions all add up – and worked on Nice Try! and The Cut. She’s a dynamic and thoughtful voice in the podcasting landscape, as always, making distinctive and bold style choices.

---

Read the Transcript

Amy Devers: Today I’m talking to podcaster, Avery Trufelman. You probably recognize that name, you will definitely recognize her voice. For 7 years, Until 2018 - She worked alongside Roman Mars on 99% Invisible, the award-winning, trailblazing podcast about all the thought that goes into the things we don’t think about — the unnoticed architecture and design that shape our world. First as an intern, and then as a producer, Avery was right there, in the recording closet of the architecture office in beautiful downtown oakland, writing, recording, and editing powerful, illuminating stories about the power of design, both as the medium of podcasting blew up, and as  99% Invisible itself climbed to global recognition.While there, under the banner of 99pi, Avery created, Articles of Interest, a 2-season mini-series about clothing, that covers a broad range of concepts including the rise of casual wear, the environmental impact of the textile industry and why womenswear doesn’t have pockets. From there she moved to Nice Try! a podcast from Curbed about utopian experiments - that includes 2 seasons of deep dives into subjects like Jamestown Virginia, and the backstory of the crock-pot. She’s also done a stint, during the pandemic, as the host of The Cut - a weekly podcast about life and culture from New York Magazine. As you’ll hear, it’s been something of a wild ride, but one that also one that feels tailor-made for a distinctive voice like Avery’s… here she is…

Avery: I’m Avery Trufelman, I live in Brooklyn and I’m a podcaster, which is like the most odious sentence in the world (laughs). And I do what I do because it’s the way that I’ve come to see the world. I can’t imagine myself doing anything else. 

Amy: I can’t imagine you doing anything else either. When I listen to your work, it really does feel like it’s your calling, 

Amy: I think you found a right, the right spot. 

Avery: Thank you. 

Amy: So, I do like to go all the way back to zero and I understand that you may actually have radio, baked into your very DNA?

Avery: I do, I’m the luckiest. So my parents met working at WNYC and they loved it and they talked about it all the time and they were just, working at WNYC in the 80s, like Allen Ginsberg was always coming by and my mom was head of classical recordings at WQXR and was traveling around the world recording orchestras in Taiwan. I grew up seeing pictures of them with my mom’s gigantic 80s hair and beautiful chunky earrings and my dad wearing his red converse sneakers. 

I love my parents anyway, I’m very blessed to have super cool parents, but they just looked impossibly cool working in public radio and they always talked about it and they were like, it was the most fun job. And they talked about how much they loved cutting tape with a knife. My mom was like, when you would lose a ‘the’ and you needed a ‘the,’ you were really screwed. It was a very different art back then. 

Amy: Yeah, you would have to physically construct the conversation. 

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: Wow. 

Avery: They both adored it. And I grew up with the radio on in the house all the time before podcasting was ever a thing, I was a huge radio fan and I got involved in college radio and always knew that radio was a part of my life and something I was really interested in. But I’m very blessed in that my parents, from the get-go, were like, oh, that’s a totally viable job, being a radio producer, you go be a radio producer and they were like, maybe you won’t do it forever, maybe you’ll do it for a decade or so like we did, but it’s so fun and you should definitely go do it. So they were always supportive and they always got what I wanted to do. 

Amy: That is truly lucky. I have a very basic pop culture understanding of what it’s like to work in radio, which is built around WKRP But it sounds like the public radio life of WNYC was a little bit more anchored in that that’s a station in and of itself that was making a lot of the zeitgeist’y content that was so important in the day. And it sounds like you could have a stable life and make radio if you were plugged into that kind of situation. 

Avery: I don’t think it paid a lot, but I think (laughter)… I don’t know, physically stable, it was in one building, but I don’t know about the other forms of stability. But the… it’s so interesting, right, hearing it be called ‘content.’ One of the reasons I found love with radio was the approach was just so different, it really felt like a public service that’s the thing I really adored it. I mean gosh, I remember when 911 happened, my mom’s first instinct, instead of turning on the TV was to… she actually ran out to the car and turned on the radio, which is kind of ridiculous because there’s a radio in our kitchen, we had a radio. 

Just this idea that this is who is going to give you the most up to date, up to the moment news at any given time and they’re not relying on B-roll or what images they can get. You hear someone on the radio you hear this in the old broadcast about the Hindenburg burning, it’s like, this is what’s happening right now, I can’t believe it, oh my god. Or like, I’m trying to figure this out. And that was the thing that I really adored growing up, listening to WNYC locally, but even NPR nationally and listening to the BBC, you know these voices and you know these names, but you don’t really know what they look like, it just felt so ego-less. It felt like they were really public servants in this really cool way and that was my favorite thing about working… I mean it’s part of why I chose to go to school where I did, is because our radio station wasn’t only a student radio station, it was because the radio station was actually an NPR affiliate and a community radio station. So I got to meet a lot of people who lived in the area, who I definitely would not have met sequestered on a campus. 

And feeling really engaged with the world and I just loved the idea of listening to the Brian Lehrer Show in the morning and having people call in and describe what they see outside their window. It just felt very holy and I don’t know, there’s something very sacred about the fact that it’s over the radiowaves and everything has resonance and radio even, you know, the stars have a sonic resonance. I was like wow, this is beautiful. And then, of course, podcasting came along and I have a lot of mixed feelings about it because it’s definitely not a public service anymore. 

And sometimes I feel bad that I’m like, hey, hey, hey, over here, look at me (laughs), rather than like, delivering something to a public by switching on a dial. But as technology gets, as podcast technology gets more intuitive and perhaps maybe more geo-located, I think there’ll be ways to integrate the best parts of radio back into the ease and on demandness and freedom that podcasting affords. 

Amy: I’m looking forward to that and I agree with you, but I think just to counteract one thing that you just said, in any medium, podcasting or radio, there’s a spectrum of vanity project versus public service (laughs). I do think if you really are consciously and intentionally building an art form that you think is serving the public, it can have a touch of vanity but also still be a public service. 

Avery: That’s an interesting point, I think you’re right. Now you’ve got me thinking about Howard Stern, which is obviously a vanity project, but god, that guy was on air killing time for three hours, occupying time, almost as like this durational performance -

Amy: Right. 

Avery: Which is also a service (laughs). 

Amy: Agreed! And then there’s Ira Glass and I don’t think that we could separate Ira Glass from This American Life and yet that show really paved the way for podcasting what it is today. And also set a new example of how we can expect to digest stories through the radio.

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: Okay, so back to you. I want to get your campus radio station days, but before we get there. Do you have any siblings or is it just you and your radio parents doing the thing? 

Avery: I have a sister and she’s the best, I’m obsessed with her -

Amy: Yay!

Avery: She’s like my best friend (laughs).

Amy: Older or younger? 

Avery: Younger. We were not super close when I lived on the other side of the country, but now that we live a 15 minute walk from each other and even last night I just happened to be in front of her door and so I came up and I don’t know, I’ve never had the kind of friend where we can just drop in on each other unannounced, and now I have that with my sister. And it’s funny, we grew up, I’m the big one, she’s the little one, but over time the age difference fades and now it’s negligible and we’re basically the same age (laughs). It’s like we have a three year age difference and it’s nothing. 

Amy: Oh, and that’s so nice - Especially after two years of pandemic, to be able to drop in on your sister, that’s delicious, say hi to your sister for me. 

Avery: (Laughs) I will, [0.10.00], I’ll probably see her super soon.. 

Amy: Okay, so big sister in the teenage years, did you feel like you needed to set an example or were you free to rebel or did you just have your nose buried in a book or how did you express yourself in your teenage years? 

Avery: Oh man, I mean the way I expressed myself was through clothes, that was my number one way of expressing myself. 

Amy: I am not surprised! (Laughter) Let’s hear it? 

Avery: Well it really showed me the importance of fashion and you know, we actually, to descend into podcaster mode for a second, to understand that, first we have to go back in time. Like it really (laughs) -

Amy: Thank you for that!

Avery: But like you see this in the history of the oppressed, not to align myself with the oppressed, I’m very lucky and fine, but I think people who historically have felt powerless have had no other outlet but their own bodies. I mean one of my favorite facts in doing research for the show that I did on clothes, called Articles of Interest, was seeing how people who were enslaved in America, there’s this huge history of indigo dye being a cash crop, even before cotton on southern plantations. And enslaved people would take some of the dye and steal it themselves to draw patterns on their horrendously itchy, uncomfortable, disgusting clothes that they were given. 

And people running away from slavery would actually sew themselves pockets into their pants as a sign of autonomy. And we see this in the history of women also, why were women who didn’t have a way to make money or express themselves, or declare who they were publicly, have no choice but to show it through their clothes and how they dressed up and what color, having a sense of style and sense of taste was almost the only sense of control and power that they had. 

And so I felt as though I understood a tiny sliver of this, being a teenager, that was like my main… some kids pick up a guitar, some kids skateboard and I went thrifting. And my aunt lived in San Francisco, which has had incredible thrift stores and I grew up going there. And just buying the weirdest, coochy print mini dresses and fringy cowboy jackets, I just loved it and I would come back to New York with these bags full of clothes my pride and joy every night as a teenager… actually as early as middle school, was just laying out very weird, very interesting… they just felt like little experiments. 

That was my art I remember loving the feeling of what can I get away with, what can I get away with today? Was my main form of expression, it meant so, so, so much to me. And I am nowhere near as wild of a dresser. I mean I miss that abandon, but I think that only came… I think I’m more subdued now that I have other outlets (laughs). 

Amy: Like now you would just be questioned for your sanity, but as a teenager, putting together the wildest outfit that you can think of is sort of understood as you forging your adult identity. 

Avery: I think there’s something to that, but I remember, I don’t know, sort of boiling the lobster slowly, sartorially, I remember the day that I decided to start dressing strange. And I remember I wore these big, huge, like rainbow beaded earrings and I was so scared to do it. I was like, these are so loud and they’re so not me. And I remember people commented on them and teased me on them all day. And at the end of the school day I threw them in the trash, I was so mortified by it. 

I was like, okay, I just have to get used to that and the first couple of times it’s going to be really hard and uncomfortable and I’m going to feel like everyone is staring at me, but then once it becomes standard, people will just understand this is who I am. And so I think almost anyone, I mean I guess I could decide to do that now, if I wanted to, once you build a sort of standard for how you present in the world, people get used to it. 

Amy: That’s interesting, so you were almost like psyching yourself into it -

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: I don’t know, reading your poetry in front of a crowd or singing a solo or something -

Avery: That’s such a good way of putting it, yeah, it felt like a really gutsy thing and it really felt like an art form and I was really nervous. 

Amy: There can be a kind of knee-jerk reaction to somebody who is willing to dress loud that they’re just a wild extrovert - But it can be very vulnerable to put yourself out there like that. 

Avery: Oh, totally, totally. You know, I never thought about this before I really did, almost like any other art form, it kind of gave people the right to comment on it, you know, and people would tell me if they liked what I was wearing or they thought it wasn’t working. I remember one girl was like, how do you get away with it? Everything you’re wearing totally clashes. And I looked down and I was like, oh my god, like none of these ‘match’ at all. And then afterwards I got really into, okay, what is matching, how can I coordinate colors?

And it felt like I was inviting critique and growing in this interesting way, that yeah, also felt very vulnerable. And I remember feeling deeply embarrassed or shameful when I felt like I had a miss and people were telling me, argh, what are you wearing today? It was kind of a funny experiment, thinking back on it. 

Amy: Yeah, I can see that. I remember one time I got kind of attacked for what I was wearing, not attacked, that’s too strong, but somebody came up to me and said, you know, you realize your shoes don’t go with what you’re wearing, you look stupid?

Avery: Oh no (laughs). 

Amy: And I remember thinking like, yeah, but I kinda made that choice and also, why is this making you uncomfortable? Why do you care that my shoes don’t match? 

Avery: Right. 

Amy: I thought about it and I recognized that somehow I was privileged in that I felt like I could take liberties like that -

Avery: What do you mean? 

Amy: Whoever was criticizing what I was wearing, clearly felt like more constricted, otherwise it wouldn’t offend them. 

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: I don’t know if they would get in trouble or if somebody in their family would look down upon them or just wouldn’t let them go out of the house like that or something, but whatever offended the person who said that to me, that had to be a reflection of their own lack of liberty don’t you think?

Avery: Oh, totally, no, I think about this all the time, that clothes are the literal barrier between our internal selves and the external world. It is actually how we physically navigate where we end and where the public begins and so on the one hand you are projecting out, who you are and on the other hand you are responding to your circumstances, your culture, literally the weather, the time of day. And you are balancing what’s inside and what’s outside all the time and you can see how those forces come to bear. 

Amy: And it’s very interesting when something that you wear can provoke a response in somebody else that really doesn’t have anything to do with you. 

Avery: And yeah, my clothes really alienate, I think well, I’m pretty sure it was my clothes, I can’t imagine what else it was, but I was definitely sort of apart. It’s weird, I wouldn’t call myself unpopular, I didn’t get ridiculed I got teased sometimes, as much as the next kid, but I didn’t get invited to parties and stuff Tom Wolfe describes himself often as the alien in the white suit in the corner. And I think I just dressed so weirdly apart, and kind of intentionally so, as my act of rebellion, that it just it didn’t work, it didn’t fit. 

And so it was interesting, I was like, why am I being so alienated, I feel so bad? But then I just couldn’t stop, I couldn’t not do it. It was like; I’ve come this far, yeah. I think I was just like, I’ve trained this hard (laughs). 

Amy: Totally, but I do think it’s interesting when you’re willing to take chances like that, it does separate you a little bit from the people who are maybe less willing to take those chances or less willing to look past the differentness into why you might be taking those chances. 

Avery: I think there was respect there, but I think, how do I put this? Yeah, I mean clothes are such a powerful marker of identity, you know? I mean especially in a place as conformist as a school, if you see someone who [0.20.00] is just, doesn’t dress like you -

Amy: Well, you’re bunking the rules -

Avery: You sit at different lunch tables. 

Amy: There are these unspoken social rules too about what hairstyles are in fashion and what shoes are on trend. And if you’re completely ignoring those rules, then nobody else really knows where they stand with you because the hierarchy is obliterated. 

Avery: Yeah, this amazing fashion writer, who I adore called Derek Guy, he’s amazing.. He told me this thing that I think about all the time and he said, when you put together an outfit, you’re basically crafting a sentence and it has to make sense. And he pointed to what he was wearing and he was like, listen, I’ve got this cowboyish, Western motif going and you understand what I’m referencing and what I’m pulling from and what my color schemes are, even if you don’t overtly get it, you sort of get it, you understand that everything is in concert and you understand who I am. 

If I were to show up in a purple dress with an electric green feather boa and ski boots, that would be a sentence that doesn’t make sense and Noam Chomsky has this example of a grammatically correct sentence that makes no sense and it’s, ‘Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.’ And he was like, if I put together an outfit that made no sense, it would just be yelling ‘Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.’ And you don’t know what to do with it. So I also want to be fair, it’s not like the other kids were like, whoa, she’s so wild, we don’t even know what to do with her. 

I mean I was yelling, ‘Colorless green ideas sleep furiously’ and in fact (laughs) I was yelling so loud that it meant nothing, it wasn’t sending any message, it was actually lacking in substance. And so it makes sense, kids didn’t know what to make of me because I didn’t know what to make of me, I was just babbling, you know? 

Amy: That’s interesting, that’s really self-aware of you to sort of, even in hindsight, to recognize that stage of your development. I mean I definitely remember using fashion to signal my alliance with punk rock -

Avery: Yeah and right, that’s a style. 

Amy: Right, yeah, I wasn’t yelling a sentence that didn’t make any sense. 

Avery: Right, right, you were carrying on a cry (laughter). You were singing in concert with a grand tradition. 

Amy: I mean it was a little mixed up because it was like half new wave, half punk rock and a lot of prints (laughs). 

Avery: But that’s style, you know, you’re taking specific references and you’re blending them together how does anyone make art, how does anyone make style? It’s like a series of references and a vision board and then you copy it and you fail in a couple of ways and that’s how you make it yours rather than just, like what’s this, what’s this, what’s this? (Laughter)

Amy: Okay, so did you carry that fashion sense into college and you studied at Wesleyan and you mentioned earlier that it was in part because they had an NPR affiliate as a campus radio. So that was part of your decision making, you were already clearly deeply invested in and supported by radio community, but you studied literature and German. So make all this make sense for me? 

Avery: (Laughs) Well, yeah, I definitely was like; I’m in this for the radio station. I don’t know, the vibes there were really nice, I remember, I was like listening to - The Liberal Arts College, Wesleyan is in Middletown, Connecticut and yeah, I remember I listened to the radio station before I ever went there and I was like, this is cool, this is interesting. They’re like a public radio station and they’re a service, but they’re also a whacky college radio station with kids grumbling into the microphone and not really, fumbling over their records and not really knowing how to use the players. Like this rules, I love all this -

Amy: I love that! (Laughs)

Avery: And they just had an amazing cast of characters at the radio station, there was like a show that was hosted,I think it’s still on called Reasonably Catholic, hosted by a nun. Their most famous one is hosted by this guy, Commander [Alyon 0.24.32] and it’s all about being an alien on planet earth, for real. it was so fun. But yeah, I wanted to study literature, I don’t know, I just aspired; I aspired to be a well-rounded person. I think the phrase I used with a friend was like, ‘I would like to be in on the joke.’ If someone makes a reference, I would like to know what they are talking about [0.25.00].

And so I did this program where we basically read The Western Canon, but we did it really quickly. It was a little unrealistic, they’d be like, okay, this week we’re reading the Bible, did you finish it? Okay, now we’re moving on to Dante. And honestly, I skimmed a lot of it, but it did definitely get me in on the joke. And another reason I wanted to do… so I understand a lot of references and I think that’s also, yeah, part of why I wanted to learn German and read German. I was like, I would like to feel like I understand this history of philosophy and literature and also my grandmother grew up in Germany and fled during WWII.

And I had always been curious about that part of her past and I was like, maybe if I learn German and go to Germany, she’ll open up. She did not, but we bonded in that way. And honestly, it’s interesting, in college I stopped dressing quite so wild but it wasn’t I was like, aha, I have found my people, actually quite the opposite in a weird way. There’s a website on the campus called The Anonymous Confession Board, where people could write whatever they wanted about other people. 

And people just kept writing about what a bitch I was granted, in their defense, I was dressed ridiculously. I was wearing; I remember I showed up on the first day wearing a gold lamé mini dress with a fur stole, like who is this? Again, ‘Colorless green ideas sleep furiously,’ just obnoxious. And so people were talking about obnoxious I must apparently be and it made me… and I was like oh, that’s not what I was trying to do at all. I just thought I was having funI was like, I have to be a little more careful with my messaging. 

And I remember I cried and went to Goodwill and bought a bunch of black shirts and black dresses and I was like, okay, I’m going to stop letting my clothes speak for me and I’m going to try to speak for me now. And I honestly didn’t really pick it back up again until my late 20s. 

Amy: So that is a really interesting experience where you realized that your message was being misinterpreted -

Avery: Yeah.

Amy: It was getting away from you. 

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: The story was getting out of your hands. 

Avery: Exactly. 

Amy: I mean that message board, in a way, helped reflect back to you how people were interpreting, who you might be, based on your clothing choices, which is sort of ridiculous and yet is kind of, I don’t know, a mirror of society. 

Avery: Yeah and I think that’s the interesting thing right? While I wish I could have been the person who would be like, screw you, I’m gonna do me, I don’t even care. I mean I’m not. I really believe in (Laughs) I don’t know, that Marshall McLuhan was onto something and to really communicate, you have to consider the recipient and the receiver. I wanted to make sure my message was coming across and it really helped me rethink what fashion is for. 

Amy: So it sounds like you made kind of a, I don’t know, very intentional course correction -

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: Did you notice right away? How long until you started to feel like people were not feeling so alienated by your bold choices? 

Avery: I was pretty oblivious in the first place, if it wasn’t for the anonymous confession board, I wouldn’t have noticed. (Laughs)

Amy: That must have been so hurtful though. 

Avery: Thank you, it really was actually, it really messed with me, but it’s like good practice for living on the internet. Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know if I noticed a difference in the way people approached me then. I didn’t toss all my clothes, I still tried to wear like fun things sometimes, I just wasn’t quite so OTT as I once was. So it’s not like I totally was like, back to nothing, I just decided to only wear ridiculous things when I’m wearing a costume (laughs). But I have realized, I mean this is such a cliché, but what tremendous power it has in attracting the kind of people you want to be around you. Actually a lot of my best friends who work with me in radio, I met them because they were wearing something really intriguing or really interesting and you go up and talk to them and they turn out to be an interesting and intriguing person. And -

Amy: That’s so fun. 

Avery: It’s the best!

Amy: And it’s an invitation, it does give you an opening too because it’s easy to say, oh my god, I love this thing, what is it, where did you get it, is it current or vintage. 

Avery: Right, and it gets so unfairly maligned as small talk to be like, cute shoes, where did you get them? But really when you ask that question, what you’re talking about is what are your consumption habits, what’s the story behind what you wear and why you wear it. And I had this little pet theory that everything that was considered small talk is no longer small talk. Like talking about clothes is a huge deal and it actually matters a lot. And now talking about the weather is not (laughs) -

Amy: Right. 

Avery: Something small anymore. So I don’t know if I saw a change right away but I think slowly, over time, as I became… especially as I left school and started to enter larger worlds and live in cities, just re-acclimated to the messages that they can actually send and how potent they are and how you actually want to be careful about what you’re projecting and who you’re projecting to. 

Amy: Okay, sidebar, we don’t have to go way into it, but does this also mean you did like the costume holidays? 

Avery: (Laughs)

Amy: Like Halloween and things like that, did you assume a character or that kind of dressing up?

Avery: I’m actually not the biggest fan. I would go all out, like in college, but I don’t believe in one-time wear, I don’t like buying disposable things or even… I’m not very good with the idea of having a special costume for a special reason. I wish I were. Vanessa Friedman had this great article a while ago that was just buy a really great black high collared, puffy sleeved, Victorian looking dress and just be a really authentic witch every year. And I was like, that’s a fantastic idea. I would love to have just one really high quality Halloween costume that I wear every year, but I’ve yet to go invest in that. 

Amy: (Laughs) You know when you go to a show and the person, the bouncer or the person taking your ticket is wearing a yellow windbreaker that says ‘security,’ on it -

Avery: You have one of those? 

Amy: I bought one of those and a fake mustache and a Maglite and now whenever I want to, I can be a security guard (laughs) for Halloween. 

Avery: That’s fantastic, that’s fantastic. Yeah, see, I just need to find a good old standby. 

Amy: Yeah. And then you can stand at the door and say, “If you don’t have a wristband you’re not getting in here!” 

Avery: Yes! Oh my god, that’s so fun, that is so fun. I will say the best kind of costume is a participatory costume like that. A long time ago an ex and I dressed as waiters from Party Down; did you ever watch that show? it’s about a catering crew and so we wore these catering outfits and we had trays of candy that we passed out to people. It felt like wearing a costume, but also being part of the party, like play acting, like you belong there. But just totally what you can do with the security guard thing too, that’s very fun.

Amy: Okay, so after college, how did you get started professionally? You went straight into radio didn’t you? 

Avery: I mean in hindsight it looks that way. It did not feel that way. Basically every summer, you know, okay, so back in my day, to really sound like an elder millennial, really before podcasting blew up, if you wanted to work in radio you either had to work at a big station in a city, like WNYC or KPCC or WBUR or WBEZ, like basically you work for one of the regional stations or you work at a tiny little station and work your way back to a bigger station, if that’s where you want to go. 

Or you try to go right to the mother ship. You try to get into NPR in DC and every summer in college I applied to internships at NPR and I always got rejected and then my senior year I applied to this very weird internship at NPR that no longer exists. NPR had this one terrestrial radio station in Germany and it just so happens that because I studied German, I had a competitive edge, even though it was not based in Germany, it was based in DC. 

And it was really weird; we basically cut up promos for fresh air and NPR shows, but announced the times that they would be on, on the German station. It was an English language station, but it was all around German timing and we’d look up the weather on weather.com in Germany and read it over the air, of what the weather was. It was so weird. And so I finally got this internship. It was the first time NPR ever paid their interns, which was a huge incredible deal at the time. And NPR, I remember on the first day they were like, congratulations NPR intern class, this admissions process is more rigorous than Harvard. 

And I remember, they were like, we’re going to go around and we’re going to say where everyone went to school and I remember the first person got up and was like, “Hi, I went to Harvard,” this is crazy, where am I? And it felt like Battle Royale, there were like 20 of us and we were all trying to see who would be able to last, who would make it out of this internship to become a temp and maybe one day get a job at NPR. And it was not me, I did not do a very good job of my internship, in fact I was horrible at it, in all these embarrassing ways. 

Amy: Like, wait, what? (Laughs) What were your shortcomings? 

Avery: Oh my god, I could not even begin to tell you all the ways I messed up in my early radio career. Okay, this is one of the more mortifying points. So it turned out, part of my job was to cut up these American shows so that they could go out on the German radio station and sometimes I’d have to edit them or arrange them in a different order, using the software. And it turns out I had done the math completely wrong because one day my supervisor comes to me and he’s like, “Avery, do you know there’s been five minutes of silence on the air in the middle of the day for the past week,” or two weeks. 

Amy: Oh no!

Avery: I was like, oh no, oh no, because that’s awful. If you have dead air, that’s… you don’t want that on the radio, ever, people are going to think their radios are broken. And so apparently all the German listeners were writing in to NPR to complain. And I had just done the math wrong. I remember my supervisor was like, you know there are 60 minutes in an hour and for some reason I was doing all of the math out of 100, for no good reason, just dumb, dumb -

Amy: It’s a rookie mistake, it could happen to anyone!

Avery: No, people know how time works. I’m like uniquely bad at math, I’m very, very bad at math and I remember burying my head in my hands and being like, oh my god, I’m never gonna work in radio.I was not a good producer and so I didn’t get to stay and I remember leaving NPR and being like, wow, that was my chance and I blew it. I worked so hard to try to get to this point and I did not do a good job. And I applied to all these other jobs and all these internships and I got rejected from all of them. Some of them I would make it to the interview phase and I would get rejected. 

And then there was this listing for an internship at 99% Invisible and I was really into podcasts, but it always felt like this underground thing [0.40.00]. I’d actually gotten into podcasts while I was at Wesleyan because I was president of the radio station my senior year and I got really into inviting alumni who had gone on to work in radio to come back to campus and speak. And they were so kind and I didn’t pay them any money, just like please come speak to me and other people. 

And I remember Lynn Levy, who at the time worked for Radiolab and we were like, wow, she was like a god. She was the one who was like, you guys should check out podcasts, there’s this great show called Love + Radio and that sent me down this rabbit hole of listening to podcasts. And it felt like [Zeens 0.40.35] at the time, it felt really -

Amy: Love + Radio was also really mind blowing for me. 

Avery: Totally, yes! 

Amy: So good and it kinda blew it wide open - Because it had so much artistry and also so much emotional resonance and it was gritty and real and yet artfully crafted, so good. 

Avery: Totally, and there was like this one episode where the main producer, Nick van der Kolk gets a gun pulled on him by an interviewee, it was bananas. It was like the first time I read Howell and I was like, poetry can do this? This is so cool. And so 99% Invisible was in there as one of these weird Indy shows doing all this experimental stuff. So I was a fan and a friend of mine who I worked on the college radio station with had a pact with me where every time we’d find a radio listing, a job listing, an internship listing, anything, we’d send it to each other and we’d both apply. 

And he found this internship listing for 99% Invisible and I was like, argh, last thing I need is another intern, I’m forever the intern, never the hire. I need to make money so I can live. But it was based in San Francisco and my aunt lives in… well, it was based in Oakland and my aunt lives in San Francisco and I was like, you know what, I’ll just apply. I remember I applied at midnight, the night it was due. I was like, well, they’re in California, I’ve got three hours. 

And then I got it and I didn’t even know how long it was going to be. I moved to California with a duffel bag and the internship got stretched, it was like three months and then six months and then they were like, I guess you work here. And then I worked there for seven years and it was the greatest experience of my life. 

Amy: (Laughs) I was gonna ask you, that must have been so foundational. 

Avery: Oh my god, yes. 

Amy: Yeah, so seven years as first an intern, but then a producer working alongside Roman Mars on such an exceptional, trailblazing, field elevating show. Hats off to both of you for that. 

Avery: Oh, thank you. 

Amy: I’m really curious because you were there for seven years, so you made major contributions to that show. You were on mic, you were a producer, you’re crafting the stories. So your contribution is very evident - maybe I’m romanticizing or glamorizing, but I have to… well, you tell the story, but I’m hoping that it’s a good one!

Avery: Oh, I mean the cool thing about it was, so yeah, I was a huge fan and I remember, I still feel this way, honestly, when Roman calls me I’m like, oh my god, Roman Mars is calling me (laughter). I’m still such a fan. 

Amy: Can you tell him I said hi?

Avery: I will! (Laughter) No, he’s the best, he remains an incredible mentor to me, I don’t have enough amazing things to say about Roman. Yeah, basically when they started they were so scrappy. We were in the corner of an architecture firm and we did not have a recording studio. We had a closet and sometimes we’d have to wait for the architects to finish their meeting so that we could go in there. There was one other fulltime producer, Roman and me, the internet. And I was there when they decided to go weekly, which I had no idea was the plan.

And doing a weekly show, the way I put it is like, you plan ahead, week one is great, week two, you’ve got something in your back pocket, week three you’re great and then week four, you’re like, oh shit! (Laughs) We don’t have anything week four. You just reach these cycles where you’re like, those were all our stories, what do we do? And so I found myself in the position and again, I have gotten rejected from NPR, I was really hungry and I was like, if I don’t make this work, I don’t think I’m going to make anything work. 

And so I specialized in just filling in the blanks. They’d be like, Avery, do you have a story? Yeah, sure, I’ll go find one and I would just go make one. And it was kind of cool, because we were so scrappy, no one was like, you are not ready yet, or this is how you use a sound board. They were like, shit, go make it, now-now-now! Making all kinds of mistakes and fumbling along [0.45.00]. Everything was lovingly edited and I had so much care. 

But I wouldn’t say I had the most support because again, we were like three people trying to make this weekly show, this heavily produced show. Yeah, it was really cool. 

Amy: Okay, so you’re not spending a whole lot on overhead because you don’t have a recording studio and you’re in the corner of an architecture firm, but first of all, what’s the relationship there and how did the architecture firm be like, sure, make a podcast here; it won’t get in our way? And second of all, who is funding this because weekly and three full time employees, that’s not cheap either? 

Avery: Yeah, it was kind of amazing. Well, the architecture firm, they were just fans, Roman had said on Twitter, does anyone have extra office space and they were so amazing. Their name is [Arkzine 0.45.56], they were the sweetest people in the world and they had a corner. They had a lot of people, they did not have a lot of space and they let us stay in a corner. But the thing that was so funny is they would always, oh, it was funny and heartbreaking. 

They would always try to show us off to clients, like clients would come in and they’d be like, you know the show, 99% Invisible, they live in our office. And inevitably every single time the client would be like, nah, this isn’t an era where you’d ask people, do you know what a podcast is and they would say no. (Laughs) For most of the time I was like, god, what am I even doing? I felt so embarrassed. I remember people would ask me what I’m up to and I’d be like, I’m a podcaster… I was mortified that… I was like, it’s really cool you guys, no one knows how cool it is. 

But yeah, Roman is a master at doing these Kickstarter campaigns, so he had a really successful Kickstarter campaign and he was starting a small business, so he didn’t initially take a salary. He would do speaking gigs and travel a lot and pay himself from that. It was super scrappy. But it’s really interesting because it taught me, for example, a lot of people who record on the radio get coached, that’s very standard for, at least for Radiolab.

Like if someone is reading something, there’s a producer in the studio coaching them or being like, do it again, try it this way. And I just never had that because we didn’t have a studio and we didn’t have the resources to do that. They were just like, go record, just read your thing. 

Amy: Avery get in the closet, read your script (laughter). 

Avery: Exactly and so that’s… it’s so funny, I’m actually the voice, if you listened to anything that was produced by PRX, you hear my voice at the end and I go, ‘From PRX.’ And that was recorded when I was 22 in this closet, in this architecture firm. It was so scrappy and it was cool and it also really prepared me for Covid because I was like, yeah, all right, this is what I’m used to, back into the closet where I belong, back to the scrappy, boot strappy, make it happen recording, I don’t know if you find it fun, but I find it very fun. 

Amy: That’s all I’ve ever been (laughs) in the podcasting world, It’s pretty scrappy still here

Avery: But that’s great, that’s really fantastic. I just think that’s the dream of what podcasting can be, it’s almost like this pirate radio thing. I don’t it to get too professionalized. 

Amy: I did, after a long time working in TV, I remember developing almost eczema or a rash to these hosted personalities, you know, these very newscastery type deliveries that just… I don’t know, you just tune them out so fast because you don’t connect to the human who is delivering the words. 

Avery: Yes, yes. 

Amy: And podcasting for me felt so liberating to just, just sink into a conversation and not watch the clock and not have somebody saying, say that again, or we need this at 64 seconds and you’re running a second long. 

Avery: Yes!

Amy: And so yeah, there’s a lot of freedom in it, for sure. There’s times I wish I had more support, but -

Avery: Sure (laughs). 

Amy: That’s the nature. 

Avery: That is the nature. I mean that’s the funny thing. As 99pi expanded, I remember we always felt like we were behind, we were always like, if we only had a little more help. And it was nice to be like, yeah, that feeling is never gonna go away (laughter). Like no matter how well-funded you are, it’s always like, argh, you’re always just gonna have holes on your programing, you’re always gonna feel strapped. [0.50.00]

Amy: So 99pi is an interesting story though. From 2013 when you joined them, to 2020, they went on a pretty nice, steep, uphill trajectory? What was it like to be in the rocket?

Avery: That’s the thing, I was so in the rocket that I didn’t know exactly what was happening around me. Like when I entered the rocket, I loved this metaphor, when I entered the rocket everyone was like, what’s a podcast and I was so embarrassed it made itself known in little ways, we eventually got our own office, there was more of a budget, we could buy more books, we could travel, we had more time to do stories. 

I’m like, oh, this is cool, but I didn’t quite realize what it was until I was on a reporting trip in London and I remember I got in a cab and the cabbie in London was listening 99% Invisible. And I was like whoa, that’s my job, I work for that show. And they were like, oh my god, are you Avery Trufelman and that was so weird, which says just as much about 99pi as it does about just the nature of podcasting. I really did not know how popular and how widespread and how mainstream it had become. I mean almost until I left it really, I didn’t realise how big it was. 

Amy: So you didn’t really recognize that the earth was receding behind you and you were shooting into space (laughs, but that must have been a wild experience to be voice recognized in a cab in -

Avery: Yeah, it was wild. 

Amy: At that point took are you also feeling solid and confident in your craft? I mean that’s one of the benefits of starting with something that’s so scrappy and yet so highly produced is that everybody is performing every role, you see how everything is done, you’re intimate with how the stories get constructed and what works and what doesn’t and how the decisions get made. Seven years into it, you must have felt like you had chops?

Avery: I think by the end, I sort of felt like I did, but the other things is like, I grew up with it, you know, I started, when I was 22 and I ended when I was 29 and my voice changed, which is an interesting thing that happens with everyone’s voices actually. If you listen to old episodes of 99pi, like Roman’s voice is so much higher and it kind of deepens as it settles into its comfort.

Amy: [Deep voice] Yes, yes it does!

Avery: (Laughter) Exactly. It’s really interesting and so Ira Glass has this famous thing that he says where he was like, anyone who gets into something, they choose to do it because they have excellent taste. Maybe you love listening to music, so you decide you’re going to be a musician or you love furniture, so you decide you’re going to make furniture, or you love podcasting, so you decide you’re going to make podcasting. But because you have such good taste and because you’re such a fan, you know enough to know that the stuff that you are initially making, is not good, like your work does not align with your own standards, which is so uniquely painful. 

Amy: Yes it is!

Avery: It really is, especially when you’re like, I hate this, this is not good. And especially when it’s out there in the world for public consumption. I was very mortified most of the time, I would say for the first five years of working at 99% Invisible I was just perpetually mortified all the time. And if someone was like, I heard you on the radio, argh, bury my head in my hands. I’m still a little mortified, but I’m not as mortified because Ira Glass says the only way to bridge the taste gap is to just keep making things, that’s the only thing you can do. 

You’ve just got to make a lot of bad work and keep going and one day you’ll be able to stand by what you actually make and you’ll get to the point where your own work aligns with your own tastes. And I remember one time Ira Glass was in town and Roman was doing an introduction for him, so I got to meet him and this is so embarrassing, but I ran up to him and I was like, Ira, you know, when will the taste gap close and he looked at me and he was like, how old are you? And he was like, what are you doing now? [0.55.00]

And he took in a bunch of inputs and then he just looked me dead in the eye, like a gap, taste gap tabulator. He looked me dead in the eye and he was like 27. I was like okay. And it kind of happened, I mean I think I’m still learning, I don’t think I’ve quite made work that lives up to the work that I want to make yet. But I think I started to feel not completely mortified at 27 and that was how old I was when Articles of Interest came out. And it felt like my graduate school project, after five years of 99pi I wanted to explore and experiment a little bit more. So I did this spin-off series about fashion and then I did it again in 2020. 

Amy: Yes, so we have two series now. For our listeners, if you haven’t listened to Articles of Interest, there are many episodes you can go back and listen to and they’re deep dives on movements and articles of clothing in ways that are crafted that align you with the back story as well as the importance, like the cultural relevance and how it’s impacted society. They’re pretty great. 

Avery: Oh, thank you!

Amy: And I remember when that series came out just feeling, the part of me that really high-fives anyone who is making really quality media around design was high-fiving you so hard (laughter).

Avery: Thank you. 

Amy: I feel like so many people get it wrong, or they flatten it or they cheapen it in some way and to see Articles of Interest kind of come out of the 99pi studio and be of your own personality, but of the same kind of caliber, I’m so happy that it exists and I hope that it’s something that you’ll keep working on, whenever you have the opportunity to, because I think it’s a great series. 

Avery: Thank you so much, thank you for asking all those in-depth questions about where I came from, now it seems obvious that I’ve always had this burning desire to explore more about clothes and be like, what’s up with that, why do these things have power, these are design stories, they belong in a design podcast. So yeah, it was really the merging of my two passions. I’m so amazed that Roman let me do this, it was basically… I mean I wouldn’t say completely carte blanche, but a lot, a lot of trust. He really just let me do my own thing, it was incredible. 

Amy: Oh, that’s so great, I’m happy to hear that. And then how did Nice Try! come about? Tell our listeners about Nice Try!

Avery: Okay, so Nice Try! Actually just landed in my lap, after I did Articles of Interest I got an email from Curbed, which was one of my favorite design websites and they were like, hey, we want to do a podcast about Utopian experiments and I was like totally sounds up my alley, I would love to do that. And it was interesting because with Articles of Interest I made it almost entirely by myself. I mean not entirely by myself, the whole team at 99% Invisible would listen to episodes and offer edits. 

I worked with a musician and a sound engineer, but more or less, everything else was just like a solo thing. And so it was really interesting with Nice Try! It was my first time being a host. I did all the interviews, but I wasn’t in Pro Tools chopping them up the way I normally would. And someone else was booking me interviews for me, which was bananas. 

Amy: That’s got to feel kind of like, I’ve arrived and also, this is weird, it’s out of my control. 

Avery: Exactly, that was my reaction, I was like, I’m not controlling this (laughter). And I was like, I don’t even know, you know… and I didn’t know what the music was going to sound like, I didn’t know where it was going to play. So it actually made me really nervous. But it was very fun. It was a nice experimental break in what I would normally do in terms of learning about, utopian experiments, which is something that I can’t say I ever had interest in before, but I’m really glad they brought it to me. I would have never thought of this myself, it’s such a good idea. 

Amy: Yeah, and it seems like one of those jobs that might come find you that does utilize your strengths, but also presents an opportunity for your own edification in the process. And you know, I can imagine your future as a podcaster, there’s going to be a lot of work that is created and all the heavy lifting is [1.00.00] done by you. And then a few nice projects where you’re plugged into the equation and you get to work with other people who have ideas about how the project should come together and you get to be more of a collaborator, or more of a contributor. 

Avery: Yeah, yeah, totally, and the team at Curbed is so incredible, it was a super lucky combination. But then of course we did Nice Try! Again last year and this time I was like making a lot of the music myself (laughs) and way, way too invested this time. I was like, I don’t know, yeah, doing all the interviews, like way, 10 times more hands-on this time than I was last time because I was like, I don’t want to do anything again if I’m not involved in every single step of the process

Amy: That might be maladaptive.

Avery: No, it’s not very, I don’t know, I don’t know, it’s the way I am now. Maybe it’ll change, but no, it’s not a very sustainable way to be (laughs). maybe I should get over it, but I’m very, I’m very into like, if my name is on it and my voice is on it, it has to reflect me. And I think that comes from working for 99pi for so long -

Amy: I think that’s a strong instinct. 

Avery: But I mean it also, I don’t know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. I think it was just because I enjoy, I would edit it and produced other people, but the stories that I put my voice and name on, I was really invested in and I always wanted to keep that. 

Amy: So that makes me want to ask you about, you did another stint as a host of The Cut, which is a weekly podcast for New York Magazine.

Avery: Yeah, I think it was a reaction to that, honestly, because it was a huge challenge to make a podcast every week during 2020. It was so hard to even come up with things to say and also we were figuring out how podcasting worked, and I think a lot of it was just The Cut was one of my favorite publications and they had had a podcast before that was one of my favorite podcasts. But now we were all in isolation and I wasn’t in the same room as all of them and so I was kind of like, I’m supposed to be representing this magazine, but what is The Cut? I feel so far away from everyone, which is no one’s fault but the pandemic. 

Amy: And as a host you’re sort of also not being utilized for all that you are, right, you’re being utilized for your quick thinking and your personality and your savviness on mic.

Avery: Yeah, I think, well, I think it was that I was supposed to represent this other publication, that I was trying to interpret and I was conspicuously not trying to be me too much. But then at the same time, working on a weekly schedule, and it was a really small team. At one point it was just me and one other person and so we were still cutting the whole thing together ourselves. 

Amy: Ah, okay. 

Avery: So it was a super small team and sometimes if you had to get a story out this week and no one was getting back to you, the easiest thing to do would be like, well, I guess I’ll make it a personal story, I guess I’ll make it about me. So it was simultaneously the most personal work I’ve ever done and the least personal work I’ve ever done.

Amy: That’s discordant. 

Avery: It was a little discordant and again, it’s all like weird pandemic timing and I think the other thing is like, there were a lot of people who had to oversee it, everything had to be run by the powers that be. And I think it left me feeling a bit confused about my own voice and my own [1.05.00] role and I think that’s why I went full throttle on Nice Try! And I was like, this is gonna be the manifestation of everything I’ve ever read and done and thought. And so maybe I’ll calm it down in the future, but it was definitely a bit of a pendulum swing reaction. 

Amy: I mean that makes perfect sense to me, now that you spelled out the contextual background and also during the pandemic I leaned 175% into my work. 

Avery: Yeah, exactly. 

Amy: Because I felt like it was the only thing I had of substance to offer a world that was falling apart and when you send your voice out there to keep people company or to inform them or to provide them some sort of solace, you start to feel like that’s your public service, yeah, we’re back to public service. When everybody was feeling so isolated, I was feeling more than ever, that I just wanted to keep putting things out for people, something to hold onto. 

Avery: But at the same time right, there would be these weeks, but I wonder if you felt this way too. I was like man, I remember going back and forth being like, does everyone want to talk about what’s going on? Or do people not want to talk about what’s going on? Is it weirder to talk about it or to not talk about it and I’ve really wrestled with it. 

Amy: Yeah, yeah, it was both and it was also happening internally right? 

Avery: Right.

Amy: That there were some days where I was like, I need to commiserate with somebody and then there were other days where I was like, I need a distraction and I need somebody to tell a story that helps me believe that it’s going to be okay. I definitely waffled between the two and I kind of gave myself permission to do that, thinking that other people were probably feeling the same way. 

Avery: Yeah, and I mean in a weird way it’s good that you did. I mean maybe one day we’ll look back at these pandemic chronicles as a little time machine or what is it, time capsule -

Amy: Yeah, I think so. Oh my god, especially in March and April of 2020, it’s like all of the recordings were like, quivering in your voice (laughter), how are you doing, are you holding up? And then after the uprising, the racial uprisings happened, I couldn’t pretend anymore (laughs), at anything, I couldn’t keep it together. 

Avery: Yeah. 

Amy: So you know, a lot of our listeners work in the creative fields, but I don’t know how many of them. I actually don’t have an idea of how many of them work in audio. So can you give us just a broad overview of what your creative process looks like? You’ve definitely worn all the hats, producer, creator, writer, reporter, talent, and I’m sure a fair amount of entrepreneurial hustling. 

Avery: Oh, barely, no, really, I’m not an entrepreneur; I’m uniquely bad at business. Like almost as bad at business as I am at numbers. (Laughs) That’s so funny that you say that. I’m like, well, I always joke, well, we’re all [** 1:08:50] future podcasters here aren’t we? I just think it’s like so many podcasters out there and it’s great, fantastic. I hope a lot of your listeners are audio people or if they’re considering audio, that they’ll actually try their hand at it. 

Amy: Yeah, actually, if you’re listening, tweet us, let us know if you’re into audio (laughter), cause I’d love a sense of how many of our listeners are making audio projects. 

Avery: But I feel like what I do is so specific and I don’t even… I mean honestly Amy; I don’t even know if it’s what listeners want right now. Because I came up in the world, when 99% Invisible was starting, we based our idea of what we were making more or less around the commute. It was like 30 minutes long, you get some good facts, it ties up with a bow, you sort of concentrate to zone out the… you concentrate so that you don’t have to listen to the fellow train riders or the traffic around you. And now I think that people are [1.10.00] commuting less, or they’re commuting differently, the nature of listening has changed.

And I think people are interested in more, almost it feels more like talk radio, things that are longer, maybe a little shaggier, maybe you can tune in and out because they’re not necessarily cold focusing while they’re commuting. They’re probably listening at home while they’re doing the dishes or clean or putz around. And so I don’t even know, for every story I do, I talk to at least eight people and I read all their books and I do a ton of research and I don’t know if… and I try to weave them together as these complicated surprising stories. 

And I’m probably not going to stop doing that because I don’t know any other way, but I only bring this up, I don’t say this to sound self-deprecating, I just say this to say that I think there is a tremendous appetite for just two people talking for really good conversation right now. And I think that’s the core of what makes good audio and I feel like the two most important things are do the reading and do the research so that you can have a knowledgeable, informed conversation, which you are… I’m so honored Amy, it’s the greatest gift you can give someone. 

Like thank you for your research and your time and it’s like an amazing gift. You help other people open up, you do the work for them and they’ll do the work for you, it’s really beautiful. 

Amy: Thank you for that. 

Avery: Oh no, thank you. And then the other thing I would say, please for the love of god, use a decent microphone. It doesn’t have to be a good one, just an external microphone. But then the thing that you do, if you’re going to edit it, which I think that’s a very merciful thing to do for the sake of your listeners, but it doesn’t even have to be, if you edit on Audacity or Garageband, or whatever, the best tip is to record 30 seconds of silence, just the sound of the room so that you can splice things together and then it doesn’t sound, like if you were to chop me off, just a chop, it would be like, uh, like all the air and the sound would go out of the room. It would cut to this weird silence. But if you want to make a nice edit, you take some of that silence you recorded and place it in the middle. 

Amy: We call that ‘room tone’ in the TV business -

Avery: It is, yes, room tone. 

Amy: It’s the same, yeah. 

Avery: One time I interviewed Rebecca Solnit and I was like, we’re just going to collect 30 seconds of room tone right now and she was like, hmm, room tone, like a pantone color wheel (laughs). I think about that all the time (laughs). Like what color is your room? Yes, room tone, okay, so you know this, but I guess for listeners, collect the room tone. 

Amy: Yes and I also, as a designer who thinks about space, I just find that so interesting that every room has its own tone. 

Avery: Yes, yes, yes. And I mean some people would even be like, unplug the refrigerator, make sure the room is as silent as possible, but I don’t know, I think as long as you’ve got room tone and it’s not obscenely noisy, you can get away with a lot. 

Amy: But how do you construct the story, what’s the writing process like for you? 

Avery: Oh man, well, the writing process for me, it’s funny. A huge part of it is like going to parties, which I obviously can’t do right now. But I think because it is a conversation based medium, it is rooted in conversation. I always am practicing telling the story to people, and by ‘practicing’ I mean pulling someone aside and being like, hey, can I tell you what I’m working on? I have no chill (laughs). People are like, what’s up Avery, I’m like, well, do you want to learn about crockpots and I’ll just practice the story. Because that’s the way to see how you naturally speak and how you naturally tell the story and when you’re in front of someone, you can gauge, oh, this is where they’re interested, this is where they’re not interested. And then who knows -

Amy: I’m losing them, I’m losing them!

Avery: Yeah, exactly and you’re like wait, wait, no, no, no, here’s a cool thing. Or they’ll be like, I don’t understand and it’s a useful way to make sure that what you’re saying over the radio actually reflects real life by practicing saying it to a bunch of different kinds of people. And then also when you practice saying it to people, you never know who is going to be like, oh, by the way, my uncle is an avid crockpot collector or invented the crockpot. So a huge part of my process is telling my stories to people, or talking about what I’m researching and what I’m thinking about while I’m doing it and really marinating on it.So honestly, the researching process and the interview process is way more long and fraught to me than the writing process because by the time I sit down to write, I’ve told it so many times I kind of just write it.

Amy: You’re just transcribing what you would say out loud. 

Avery: Yeah, basically, just la-la-la-la-la and so… Not to say that it’s all like fun and easy, [1.15.00] then that first draft is awful and then it gets edited. But yeah, that’s sort of how it works for me. I think to sound like a conversation; it has to be based in conversation. 

Amy: I love that you shared that. I wasn’t expecting to hear that, but it makes perfect sense. That so much of your creative process is, it’s almost like I hear comedians talk about how they work out material too, it’s like that. 

Avery: Yes. 

Amy: You tell the story, you figure out where people lose interest, you figure out where the interesting parts are, what people react to, what order it needs to go in, what’s the right pacing. 

Avery: Yes, exactly. 

Amy: Which words people don’t understand and might need a little extra contextual information. 

Avery: Totally. 

Amy: I’m so glad you said that. 

Avery: I always say my research process is like parties then books. You talk to people and they’ll recommend movies to watch or books to read. 

Amy: Fun!

Avery: Well, now it’s really hard (laughs). 

Amy: Parties and books and a gold lame pixie dress. 

Avery: Oh my god, oh man, we would have gotten along great when I was a freshman (laughter). No, but really, the other day, I just loving getting coffee with people and having walks with people and sometimes I’m like, man, do I just fritter my whole day away, socializing? But that’s really where I get so many of my sources, finding out what people are interested in, what they’re reading and then absorbing it from there. I think yeah, it’s a people based medium and it has to be rooted in conversation. 

Amy: Brilliant. I mean it makes perfect sense, but when you spell it out like that, it’s also, wait, why didn’t I think of that. Okay, but before I wrap this up, so you’ve been so transparent with your process, I’m hoping you’ll be just as transparent with your personal life. I like to ask people about their personal life, not just strictly to pry, but I really believe in celebrating the whole person -

Avery: I love that!

Amy: And I know you exist in many multitudes outside of work and -

Avery: Well, like barely (laughter). 

Amy: Well, lately it’s hard; we’re all weirded out and distorted versions of ourself. I think I have a sense of what… there’s a standard of quality that comes through in your work. There’s an interest in design and fashion, there’s a deeply historical lens that you frequently tell your stories in, which I think goes back to your literature and you definitely don’t tell stories that have short shelf lives. 

Avery: Oh, thank you!

Amy: So I’m wondering what that looks like in your personal life? What do you do for joy and where do you find meaning and who are the people that accompany you on these excursions? 

Avery: Oh man. I mean I still feel like I’m sort of rebuilding my life now because I moved to New York during the pandemic and -

Amy: I moved to Providence during the pandemic -

Avery: Really? From where? 

Amy: Yeah, from Los Angeles, I lived in Los Angeles for 20 years. 

Avery: Whoa!

Amy: Yeah, it’s weird. 

Avery: You know how it feels. I have this whole world and my whole life and the way I lived in Oakland and it was always like biking around, hanging out at my favorite bookstore and -

Amy: Yeah. 

Avery: There was this one bar that I would just go to and everybody I knew would be there. It was like this little lovely community. 

Amy: I love Oakland; by the way, it’s got so much flavor. 

Avery: Totally, I mean that’s the thing. I remember bringing people who were visiting, and I loved my spot. The 99% Invisible office was downtown and that was just where I lived. And you know, downtown looks ugly [1.20.00], it looks like there’s not a lot going on, but you just turn down the side streets, you’ve got to know where to go and it’s just, it’s thriving. It was so alive, it was so fun and whatever, downtown has already changed so much, even during the pandemic. One day I’ll go back, but I’m a little scared of it. I feel like way too sentimental about Oakland. 

Amy: Yeah, it might be too soon, the scab needs to heal a little bit more. 

Avery: Exactly, so yeah, that’s the thing, I’m just like who am I in New York and right now, I mean I hang out with my sister a lot. I see my parents a lot. I hang out with my boyfriend a lot and I have like two best friends from college and so I have this little world. And honestly, what brings me joy? I’m still sort of trying to remember that, I’m trying to remember how to read for pleasure again and I don’t know, take long walks. I wish I could tell you that I had… I wish I could be like, yeah, I’m a, what’s it called when you collect stamps? 

Amy: Oh, there’s a word for that?

Avery: A philatelist, I forget, but they have a very fun phrase. I don’t have some cool, secret hobby. I wish I could be like, yeah, I’m into Tuvan throat singing, but I don’t know, I’m pretty boring. I think there’s been this necessary movement that has happened right now where people are like, you’re not your job. Which is true, but I remember in the Bay area, and even actually in New York when we were briefly allowed to go to parties and I would go to parties and people would be like, you’re not allowed to talk about work. 

I don’t think that’s actually the right response. I mean I think that was a pendulum swing that had to happen and I think we needed to step back and realize that life wasn’t only about work, especially exploitative mistreatment. But I hope that there can be a sort of middle-ground or a new era about valuing work instead and I don’t know, when I look at old WPA murals about the beauty of labor, that’s kind of how I feel. I love my work and I’m proud of it and I don’t think it defines all of who I am, but it’s such a joy. 

I’m so lucky, I feel so… I keep using the word ‘blessed’ which makes me sound weirdly… I’m not Evangelical or anything, I don’t know, I’m just so grateful that I get to do this and it’s so fun to talk about, to talk about what other people do for work. So yeah. 

Amy: I’m with you, what about if you’re really passionate about it? The other thing I do, I’m an educator, I teach furniture design and I podcast and that’s who I am (laughs). If I don’t talk about that, then I can’t contribute, I can ask questions, I’m pretty good at that, but I need for that to be part of the conversation because that’s what I’m really passionate about. 

Avery: Totally, totally, and I think there are so many things that can be done to make all forms of work, like oh my god, especially teaching, to make teaching feel more valued and production. I mean I’m reading, I do a lot of reading and research about clothing, I’m like oh my god, not de-valuating the labor of making clothes, you know?I feel like right now the way the economy is set up, you don’t like your job, get a cool side gig or get a side hustle or find something else that doesn’t matter. It’s like well why don’t instead we make all these jobs interesting and valuable and pay more and worth talking about, which is easier said than done. But yeah, exactly, I think… I mean my boyfriend is a film producer and we always joke that life is work, work is life, but it’s like not, that’s not untrue. We get to do what we like to do, we’re very lucky.

Amy: Yes, I feel that you feel lucky and I’m happy for you and I agree with you, I feel like there’s a lot of labor out there in the world that gets de-valued and instead of de-valuing it, we could really spend some time and energy creating the conditions -

Avery: Yeah.

Amy: For people to be compensated in a way that makes them feel valued, give them enough ownership to take pride in their work. And then also [1.25.00], when we value the labor that goes into our objects, we value the objects more. 

Avery: Yes, yes. 

Amy: It’s just all part of creating a world that has a lot more care and intention in it, which is, I think, something we’re all craving. 

Avery: That’s so beautiful. That’s totally what I meant to say (laughter), fantastically said, took the words right out of my mouth (laughs). Yes. Amen!

Amy: Well, I appreciate that you’re kind of in this also pandemic transition where you’re in a new place but you can’t, fully settle in because there are so many limitations, but I’m glad you have your boyfriend and your sister close by. 

Avery: Oh, me too. So what does future Avery look like to you? Do you have a dream for the future you can share? Does it feel too vague and blurry because the world is on fire and there’s such extreme uncertainty?

Avery: Oh my god, I feel as old as the hills Amy, just because like podcasting is so relatively young and I’ve been around for all of it. I’m like yeah (laughs), industry veteran! I don’t know.  I don’t know. I mean I just… it’s funny, sometimes people will be like, what’s your end goal here? Do you want to write a book? Do you want to write for TV? What do you want to do? And the answer is just like, I love audio and I just want to make more of it, this is all I want to do. 

And this is like, this is the be-all and end-all, this is the end goal and it’s 10 times better than what I could have ever dreamed of when my original plan was work at a regional station in rural Alaska and slowly try to work my way up to finally be closer to my family. So I don’t know, I hope I can keep doing more of this, if that’s not too much of a Miss America answer. 

Amy: No, I mean I think… when I said at the beginning that it seems like you’re in your calling, I think you are you don’t have to know what kind of audio you’ll be making in the future, that’s the beauty of being a creative, like you haven’t had all your ideas yet. 

Avery: Thank you.

Amy: But the fact that you feel like you’re in the right place, that’s wonderful. 

Avery: I feel like I’m in the right place at the wrong time, I really just want to go interview people in person again. I’m so bummed about it. It was so fun for a moment last year, most of the interviews for Nice Try! Season two I got to do in person, I was like, I’m back baby! And now I don’t know. This is lovely, like remote totally works, but it’s not the same, it’s not the same (laughs). 

Amy: That’s my dream; I wanna do in person interviews. 

Avery: Yes! That’s the dream [1.30.00]. Okay, can I steal your answer? That’s my dream; I want to be doing in person interviews (laughs). 

Amy: Avery, you’re delightful. You’re amazing. 

Avery: I feel the same about you, thank you so much for all your questions; it’s truly the greatest gift. 

Amy: Thank you for sharing your story with me and for sharing your fashion adventures and your audio adventures and even your uncertainty because I think that, especially at this time, and you’re in a time of transition, uncertainty is something we can all relate to and it makes me feel less alone knowing that other people are kind of feeling it too. So I really appreciate that. 

Avery: Thank you, thank you, that’s really good to hear (laughter). 

---

What is your earliest memory?

Taking a bath with my sister.

This is a live performance that Avery did in Australia in 2019 - she premiered the first episode of season 2 of Articles of Interest at the Audiocraft festival in Sydney!

This is Avery dressing somewhat ridiculously (although this was seriously subdued for her at the time) in a rehearsal for a middle school play. She clearly did not get the memo about wearing pants.

How do you feel about democratic design? 

Like the democratic process itself, it’s impossible to be fair to all parties. A low price comes at a cost to someone. 

What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?

Roman Mars always said “‘Important’ is the least interesting kind of interesting.” If it’s not the news, it needs more than pure urgency. 

How do you record your ideas?

Frenetic notes on my phone and scribbles on my hand.

What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?

A cobalt blue Japanese ballpoint pen that my boyfriend gave me. 

What book is on your nightstand?

I always have Pessoa’s Book Of Disquiet on hand, and I’m still halfway through Red Comet: The Short Life And Blazing Art Of Sylvia Plath. It’s so good but so very  long!

Why is authenticity in design important?

I think there is also something to be said for creative artifice 

This is Avery working at her desk at 99pi in Oakland- this is back when they were housed inside of an architecture firm called Arcsine.

Another photo of Avery working at her desk at 99pi in Oakland- this is back when they were housed inside of an architecture firm called Arcsine.

Favorite restaurant in your city?

Truly my favorite place to eat is in my best friends’ kitchen- Ari and Rishi are tremendous chefs and cocktail mixers. But if I have to answer seriously, going to Vinegar Hill House is a magical treat. 

What might we find on your desk right now?

So many pens. And errant earrings I took off.

Avery on a reporting trip she did in Taiwan in 2016.

Avery and her dear friend Eleanor Kagan (who is a masterful podcast producer herself) at the Dior exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum.

Who do you look up to and why?

Roman Mars, of course. He’s my mentor and north star in podcasting. And Laurie Anderson is the kind of genre-bending artist I wish I had the courage to be. I also find a lot of inspiration in the beautiful life my parents have built. 

What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?

I don’t know! I change my feelings about my projects all the time. They’re my rowdy children and I love them all and I am also a little embarrassed by all of them. 

What are the last five songs you listened to?

Ugh can I lie? I was listening to Ryan Adams- which is so un-pc and so uncool- but I was feeling nostalgic today.

Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?

I am, for better or worst, a twitter person. I tweet @trufelman  

---

Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.

---

Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Production assistance from Ilana Nevins and music by El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.

Clever is a proud member of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows.

---

Keep Listening