Ep. 134: Clever Extra - Unpacking Danish Design’s Timeless Appeal
In this Clever Extra we teamed up with Carl Hansen & Son to unpack society's long-term love for Danish Design. Known for exceptional craftsmanship and an alluringly clean, organic aesthetic, many of the now-iconic pieces of the Danish Modern era were initially too avant-garde for Danes, and found their foothold in the US market. Carl Hansen & Son’s director, Erik Hansen, and Principal of Commune, Roman Alonso, break down the enduring appeal of Danish Design and its mark on our global design consciousness.
To learn more about Carl Hansen & Son, visit carlhansen.com
Erik Hansen: It is important for us that we have a clean conscience as well when we produce the furniture that we do. That our customers demand it. They love that it is a clean product.
Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. In this special Clever extra we’re discussing the timeless appeal of Danish design. Known for exceptional craftsmanship and an alluringly clean organic aesthetic. Many of the now iconic pieces of the Danish modern era were actually considered too avant-garde for the Danes initially and found their foothold in the American market. Noow, after decades of adding warmth, depth, and sophisticated polish to spaces and having endured for generations, these well-made wooden chairs and other beloved furniture pieces have carved themselves onto our global design consciousness and into hearts and homes the world over. To understand this long-term love affair, in true Clever fashion I’m going back to the beginning and tracing the path forward to the here and now. I’m talking to Erik Hansen, director and third-generation owner of family-operated Danish furniture manufacturer, Carl Hansen & Son. And Roman Alonso, designer and founding partner of Commune, a studio responsible for popular retail and hospitality interior design projects for Ace Hotels, Goop, Tartine, and Heat Ceramics among others. Alright, let’s get into it.
EH: My name is Knud Erik Hansen; usually in English I’m only using my name, Erik. I am the managing director of Carl Hansen & Son, which is a furniture manufacturer in Denmark. We have our factory here in the middle of Denmark on Funen Island, close to Odense, where Hans Christian Andersen grew up, and worked. We are a 112 year old company and I’m third generation owner.
Roman Alonso: So my name is Roman Alonso and I’m a principle at Commune Design in Los Angeles, we’re a multidisciplinary design studio. In a nutshell we design commercial and residential interiors as well as graphic identities and products that fill those spaces.
AD: Very nice, so I am excited to have this conversation with both of you. I really want to set the stage and lay the groundwork for our listeners because this is a story of intergenerational and intercontinental collaboration. So, I’m interested to hear a little bit about the back story of Carl Hansen. It was established, you said it’s a 112 years old, so that means it was established in 1908 and initially run by your grandfather, Carl, then your father Holger and your mother also played a significant part of the history.
EH: Yes, I would love to, it’s correct; we were founded here in Odense in 1908 by my grandfather. He was qualified as a carpenter and he got his permission to open his own business. And he did, he had an objective of producing furniture at a high quality, at a decent price, so his customers would feel they got a good deal, then they would automatically come back to him. That was his theory and he wasn’t too wrong, in fact, he built up quite a nice business, built a nice factory in 1934, but unfortunately got a heart attack and in those days when you got a heart attack, you were kept in bed for months.
And he also had a bit of diabetes, so they took off his one leg and so he was a little crippled. So my dad got into the business, although he wasn’t too happy for that, he was too early in his life, but he did. And he was a very different person to my grandfather, he had a lot of initiative and he worked hard on getting export going and things like that. During the war we produced furniture made of oak that we have plenty of in Denmark and therefore we didn’t need to import anything.
And after the war we got into serial production, that was something new in those days, what you may also call ‘mass production’ that came after the war. For that you need a good architect and he knew one in Copenhagen that made some very avant-garde furniture, his name was Hans J. Wegner and they met in 1947 and Wegner came to our factory in 1949. I think he was sent by his wife who wanted him to be able to make a little bit extra income because he was a very, very meticulate carpenter that didn’t like too much of, can you say, the modern way of producing.
But anyhow, he got over there and they made four pieces of furniture which he brought with him, the prototypes. And when my grandfather saw that, he told my father it was garden furniture, so he was sent on pension [laughs]. My dad then ran the business and built up a very big business and very interesting part is that he couldn’t sell anything in Denmark, it was way too avant-garde. One of the chairs was a Wishbone Chair which I think many people know.
AD: Yes.
EH: At that time it was too avant-garde for everybody, at least in Denmark and in Europe. So he went to the United States, he went to New York in 1953 and he met the Danes that left Denmark in the 30s to sell Royal Copenhagen and Georg Jensen silver. They understood the design and they had great, can you say, luck in selling the furniture in the United States, especially in San Francisco. And they built up a big business. So our business actually, the export of our business started in the USA.
Then they came back after a month and then we got also going with export to Germany which was all bombed out and there was built up again by American dollars. And then slowly but surely he got a big business. But in 1962 he had a heart attack, my father, 50 years old, and he died, and my mother was a housewife with two children, one of 10, that was me, and my brother, 15. And she had a choice of closing up the whole business or trying to continue herself. She did not have any formal education in running a company.
And in 1962 no women in Denmark or anywhere in Europe owned their factory. But nevertheless, she got into it and she decided to continue so my brother and I could take over the business one day. And she was very, very good. She ran the business for 20 years and without any formal background for doing it. And my brother could get into the business in 1982.
I felt that I wanted to try something else, to learn in a different way. So I joined a very big Danish company called the East Asiatic Company and I was sent out and went into shipping. And I worked most of my time for that company in the Far East, 22 years in the Far East and 26 years I was employed there.
Then I went back because I thought I would try and see if I shouldn’t get going on the family business. I felt it was necessary for us to expand and to get further on with the business, but my brother was not willing to invest what it took. So in fact I bought him out in 2002 and then I took over the business and I took it from there. Today, we are one of the largest furniture manufacturers in Denmark. We have 400 people employed. We have one factory in Vietnam where we produce contract furniture and outdoor furniture with 1,000 people.
We have flagship stores all over the world, in New York and San Francisco we have shops, we have in the USA, 20-25 people employed. We have our own people placed all over the world. We don’t work through agents, so that also makes it a little bit different to other furniture companies. Our people are placed all over the world and we have about 100 people outside Denmark.
AD: Oh wow, what a story, I have so many follow-up questions [laughter].
EH: Good!
AD: As a young boy, did it make a big impression on you to see your mother assume the helm of the family business?
EH: I can tell you it did. I still get a lump in my throat sometimes when I think about it because all of a sudden, she was 45 years old, they were happily married and my dad just fell over and died. And she was alone. And I was 10, as I mentioned, my brother was 15, we were in no way able to take over. She decided, I must do it, and she did.
Money was scarce because when the owner dies everybody wants their money. So we were certainly not wealthy and she didn’t speak any foreign languages but still, she managed. She had a fantastic way of marketing the products and making people interested by being very enthusiastic and they bought from her and she managed. Later on she got also people employed that could help her with the sales and the company survived for nearly 20 years.
I think that was a great, great effort and we are very, I think both my brother and I today, are very, very grateful for what she did. I am at least and I can see what problems she has had, it must have been a tremendous job.
AD: Yes.
EH: She never married again, but she was also a very good mother to my brother and I.
AD: Wow, that’s such a powerful story and you know, I’m also taken with how much love, your mother married into the business essentially, but she must have had so much love for the company and the ethics and the principles and the values of the company in order to assume that role with so much. Self-sacrifice and sheer fortitude, not to mention creativity and strength.
EH: You are right, that is exactly right [laughter].
AD: I know you went off to work for East Asiatic for a while and you learned the ways of the world and the ways of big business before coming back to assume the helm of the family business. One wonders if you are duty bound or is a passion of yours as well. It could be baked into the Hansen DNA [laughter] considering it’s in your lineage -
EH: There is a little bit of everything. I love the business, I love the company, I have followed it and I’m the last person in my family that has known everybody, even Carl Hansen, I have been sitting on his knees where he has been reading Donald Duck for me and you know, it has been, I know them all and they are still very fresh in my mind and I must say that gives you a great respect for what they did and for what I have today. Because every generation has done something which is still living in the company, it’s still there.
My grandfather’s way of starting up his business, we still stick to that kind of thing. We make top quality products. Are not the cheapest in the world, in Denmark, we are certainly very expensive people, but we make extremely good quality. And my dad got into working with Hans J. Wegner and built up a big factory and big, big business there, started up the Danish export of furniture to the rest of the world. I mean he was a very, very, a very industrial person that went for anything that he could find to get helped and helped all his colleagues as well.
My mother that helped the company for 20 years to carry on to the third generation and my brother ran the company. He didn’t expand, he didn’t want to invest, but still he ran the company for 20 years too and then I came in. And I could take over a small company, but I could see the potential in it. And therefore it is not duty, it is more passion I think that’s a better word for it because I love the products and I love the people here in the factory and we have done something which is highly unusual.
We produce in Denmark and there’s only a handful of them left, the rest of them work outside Denmark, but we produce inside Denmark, which is again, a quality stamp on what we are doing, because people here, the craftsmen in Denmark are extremely good.
AD: Renown throughout the world. Roman, I want to weave you into this story. I understand that you have worn many creative hats. You’ve studied film and art, and history and have worked in corporate PR for Barneys and Isaac Mizrahi and you had your own art publishing company, Greybull Press for many years. You and your partner, Steven Johanknecht founded Commune in 2004. So, can you tell me a bit about Commune, how and why you two came together and what drives your practice?
RA: Steven and I met actually 30 years ago, while at Barneys and this was Barneys when the Pressman family owned the company, so it was a much different Barneys than later. And we worked in the same department, which was the creative services department. He was in display and store design and I was in PR. And that department also included advertising. We worked as a team and looked at everything that had to do with any creative events, PR, advertising.
It was all kind of looked at in by committee, which usually that doesn’t work very well. But at that time and with this group it worked really well. Gene Pressman, who was our boss, had brought in very interesting people which in retrospect it was an incredible group. It was Glen O’Brian and Ronnie Cooke and Simon Doonan and Mallory Andrews, who was a really brilliant event producer and my boss and the art person I learned a lot from her.
So it was a really exceptional group of creative people, all young. And they really allowed us a voice. And that experience really shaped Steven and I. It became our process, he went on to work at Banana Republic and Donna Karan, as well as Studio Sofield, he ran that studio for a while. And I went on to work with Isaac Mizrahi and published books and everything we’ve ever done has been shaped by that experience.
Commune is a result of it. It’s really us wanting to work in that way, looking at things in a very holistic way. Looking at things from all sides, giving everyone in the team a voice, knowing full well that everything becomes better when you have a lot of heads on it, and really believing in that. So, the name says it, Commune is really about a community of people doing things, whatever that might be, because it’s a wide range of things. And we never felt limited in what we can do. It’s always been about the mix, to keep things interesting and also because we felt that we wanted a design company more than we wanted a design studio. And there’s a difference
AD: Ooh, you’re gonna have to elaborate on that difference -
RA: Well maybe an example would help. When we first started the company, we looked closely at Terence Conran, we read his book and he became an inspiration. When he created Habitat, we wanted Commune to be something that could live well at the bottom of a cup, right? So the idea of working with clients and interiors, it was almost an excuse to make all the things that would go into those spaces. We felt limited when people said we were interior designers because in fact we were not, you know, we had never been trained as such. And we had these very sort of non-linear backgrounds. So I only recently became a little more comfortable with the idea that I was a designer. It was just something that I never planned to be and kind of became by accident, and I learned everything on the job. The idea of being an interior designer was never our intention.
RA: We just like making things, with people and that is really at the heart of what Commune is, creating a family of creatives that you want to make things with. Make things that are a great deal of value and personality.
AD: It’s so rich that you and Steven had such a powerful and impactful start together in that committee that was so artfully assembled. And I think that when you experience a kind of magic and then you go on to experience the rest of the world and understand that that magic is actually really rare, that it’s actually like an act of, it’s a gift to humanity to attempt to recreate that magic and to make your work about assembling those groups of people who all have voice and can all contribute to spaces and products and ideas in a way that it pays it forward, both to the client and to the people who are working for Commune. So, I really feel the generosity in that.
RA: It is hard to talk about yourself in that way because yeah, it’s always interesting to hear from others and how they perceive it because yeah, it’s just a hard thing to verbalize. We do hope that what we’re doing is creating a process of seeing things and making things that is moved by those who we work with and those in the studio. And that they take that information with them wherever they go. So that is a big part of it. It is, and we have a big mentoring program in our studio in how we structure things. Because we want people to really learn our way of doing things or looking at things.
AD: That’s beautiful. We always say here at Clever that we like to offer a window into the humanity behind design and Eric, we have this enormous opportunity with you on the line here, you’re about to turn 70, happy birthday by the way -
EH: Thank you! Thank you!
AD: You grew up with a front row seat to some of the most celebrated designers of the Danish modern era. You’ve mentioned Hans J. Wegner, the designer of the iconic Wishbone Chair, but also Børge Mogensen, Nanna Ditzel and countless others. I have to ask you, do you have any interesting, fun stories to share with us?
EH: [Laughs] I think, I don’t know how much time you have because I have many! [Laughter] But there is perhaps one I should try and cut down short because it’s actually, all my stories become Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales, but this year is of course, I went to, working with Hans J. Wegner is of course a great pleasure and I know the family very well. And so I went for Hans Wegner’s wife’s 85 years birthday. And there I spoke to also the daughter, Marianne, of Hans Wegner and her friends came around and they were beautiful elderly ladies that wanted to celebrate Inga. And therefore I was told by Marianne Wegner, to go down to the studio where Hans Wegner used to work.
Usually when I get there, there are no furniture because I try to get everything, it’s like a small child in a candy shop, I want everything. So they usually take away everything, but there was one chair, because I was not supposed to get down there and that chair I loved. That is fantastic and Marianne is said to me, “You can’t make it, it’s very difficult. My dad designed it in 1956 and it’s been offered to all your clients, but they don’t want it, they can’t make it.
Anyhow, I said I can make it, I was new in the business, I didn’t know all the traps in making furniture, but it was a very simple chair to look at. And I took it, I got permission to bring it to the factory and show it to the carpenters and then she said to me, “Then you’ll probably bring it back because they won’t make it.” But I was very persistent and today we do make the chair. The CH20 it’s called, the Elbow Chair. We actually, about a month after I got permission to make the chair and it was all approved by the Wegner studio, then John Pawson phones me, from London and asks me if I had anything new to show for him and I did, I did have that chair and I brought it to London. And he looked like, he looked at it and he went around it, he sat in it and he did that for about 20 minutes and then he screamed out in his studio that he wanted 2,000! [Laughter] And I went to him and I said, “Two thousand, yes?” And he said, “Yes,” and I said, okay, how long time do I have and he said you have nine months and I said, okay, fine.
I’ll make it in nine months, no problem, and then he said, okay, what does it cost? And I didn’t have a price, so I said, well, about the same as a Wishbone Chair, a little bit more perhaps. So he wrote that down on an order note and he said, “What is it called?” I said, “It’s called CH20, the Elbow Chair.” And he wrote that down as well and he wrote 2,000 and the day he wanted it delivered in Barcelona. And I got the order and I went back to the carpenters and said we got an order for 2,000 and they nearly died! [Laughter]
Anyhow, we started on it and about a month, a month and a half later, John Pawson phones me and he says, “How many have you made?” I said, I don’t know, 300-400, something like that, we are working on it and he said, “No, no, no, I have something terrible has happened, the directors of the hotel have changed and the new directorship they don’t want wooden furniture.” I asked if it was for the rooms, no, it was for a banquet, banquet room. Anyhow, so I said it’s right, you shouldn’t have a wooden chair there, you should have a steel chair because they shuffle it around four times a day, that is hard for a wooden chair.
Anyhow, he said, “What do I owe you?” I said, “You don’t owe me anything.” And we carried on and on and on, he’s a gentleman, he wanted to pay and I said, “No, I will just sell the furniture, don’t worry, it’s a nice and attractive piece of furniture, I can easily sell it.” And in the end I ended up making a compromise with him. I said, you know, you do me a favor on another day.
And about a month later a German gentleman phones me, his name was Gerd Bulthaup and I didn’t know who Bulthaup was. And he said he was speaking to John Pawson because he had made a new kitchen, the b3 which was too much of laboratory, it was too cold and of course John Pawson said, “Put some wooden furniture in front of it.” And he said, “From who?” He said, “From Hansen.”
And then he said, “Can I come and visit you,” I said, “Of course you are welcome.” So he came over the next day, he spoke German to me and luckily I also speak German, so I could answer him and we went in to see the factory and he was so impressed with the machinery work and then of course all the craftsmanship afterwards, before the furniture is finished.
And when he got up again, he said to his two directors that followed him, “From now on I only want Carl Hansen furniture in my show rooms,” and I asked him very politely, “How many show rooms are we talking about?” And he said, “About 400!” [Laughs] Since then we have actually supplied Bulthaup with a lot of furniture and they’re still a very nice customer of ours and we appreciate that very much.
But you see what comes out of a cup of tea and a cheese sandwich at Inga Wegner’s 85 year birthday! [Laughs] So that is a fairy tale.
AD: Yes, but I love that you painted all of those connections for us and you also were able to posthumously put a piece into production, which is -
EH: Oh yes, we still make it [laughs].
AD: Yes. Roman, I’m sure you’re very familiar with these stories and obviously Danish design and some of these specific designers that have created iconic pieces with Carl Hansen & Son, I’d love to learn what kind of impact these pieces and Danish design had on your life and work. Let’s start with the personal, as you’re finding your creative voice and using it, how did Danish design influence you?
RA: You know, it had a huge influence actually. Everything I know about this business, I learned in the last, to be honest, in the last 20 years. I mean before that I was in the fashion business. I mean you’re in the fashion business, there is no other business, and especially back in the 90s, so completely in that hole. So when I left fashion and moved to LA, is when I really started to look at the world around me, really. And the first thing I bought, when I got to LA and I had a new apartment, I left most of what I had in New York there, was a vintage Wishbone Chair [laughs] that was original. It’s the orange color -
EH: Oh yeah.
RA: And it had the original lacquer on it, it was just perfectly patina and I’m sitting in it right now actually.
AD: Wow!
RA: So I still have it. It’s now been with me for 22 years and that was the first thing I ever really noticed. I knew about Scandinavian furniture, of course, and in a way had experienced it, but I never really looked at it. That was the beginning of a long love affair because I go to it before I go to anything else now and there are reasons why. I’m a very practical person and I feel like design does not work or is not good unless it works well.
I’m not as concerned about aesthetics as I am about the way things feel and the way things work. And I feel like Danish furniture really is not only functional, but is made with excellent quality and craftsmanship. It’s built to last, so it has great value and it’s also beautiful, and honestly, I feel like a lot of it is incredibly sexy in a very brainy way. I know a lot of people wouldn’t think that, but I think that, you know, it’s like in an intelligent way, it can be very sexy and humorous.
I mean I think of a Finn Juhl Pelican Chair and how humorous that is. And a Chieftain Chair, by Finn Juhl too, like that is a chair that to me, in a very masculine way is incredibly sexy. So I looked at it as something that fills a lot of spaces for me. And they just always work. It’s easy to place a Clint Dining Chair, when you show it to a client, it’s so classic and it’s so comfortable that it just, you show it to someone, they’ll love it and they’ll keep it and that’s really important to me, that they keep what they acquire.
AD: I agree wholeheartedly because that long term relationship that you started the story with, the 22 years you’ve had with that vintage Wishbone Chair is one of the things that makes a space have roots, makes it not feel disposable, makes it not feel like you could erase it and replace it so fast. And when you feel like it can be erased and replaced, you feel transient, you feel like you don’t belong and so there’s something, I think, about when you populate a space with objects that were crafted lovingly, with a sensuality and sensitivity to the materiality of the piece and that are meant to live, or outlive you even, you feel, your scale is such that you don’t feel like you’re the most important thing in the room. [Laughs]I know that sounds weird, but I think it gives you a sense of value and it reflects back to your own personal values. So it’s really grounding in that way
RA: I totally understand and you know, the other thing about Danish furniture to me is that it’s quiet because it really works almost with anything, in any environment. But it also has a lot of presence, like it really… And it can adapt. I actually have a Nanna Ditzel chair. It’s in my home, I believe it’s a model 83, I think, and Steven has the same chair. We both have the same vintage chairs in our apartments because it’s just really comfortable. It’s the perfect height, it’s the perfect seat.
I love sitting in it, I actually meditate in it. Now Steven’s is leather and it looks very different from mine because mine is upholstered in a Tibor boucle, in a really bright green because I love the color. And so my chair looks incredibly, I mean it looks completely different from his, but yet, and in my apartment it looks completely different from his. So it’s almost like it can, I always feel like it can adapt really well to almost any environment and what you’re getting in the end is just a really great piece of furniture and it’s not just looks, it’s more than that.
I’m a big fan, as you can see and [laughs] it has worked for me and I have to thank you, you know, Erik, it’s really helpful to have your product.
EH: That’s very nice.
RA: And I also thank you for making it so well to this day because that’s not the case with everything.
EH: That’s true.
RA: An Eames chair, a vintage Eames chair is very different from a new Eames chair and I have this conversation with clients all the time because they’re like, why am I paying for this expensive vintage chair when they still make it and it’s so much less. I’m like, because it’s not the same chair and because I hate bringing things into the world that are not as good as the original. And you do make it as good as the original and that is very appreciated, you should know that.
EH: Thank you very much, no, but that’s very true and you know, the strange part is that I live in a house from 1670, a real old house with a moat and the whole lot, really romantic. And it fits in there as well. I have furnished it, of course, not entirely, but primarily with our own furniture and in such an old house, it still looks fantastic. And you can have a John Pawson house which is square and simple and you have the same feeling. So it’s true that they are classical and you get into a good mood when you look at them.
And strangely, we are still making, take a chair like the Wishbone Chair, sometimes we change the colors or we do a little thing to them, so to pep them up a little bit and bingo, they sell again like hot cakes because they are very attractive, I must say, although I’m a Dane, I cannot help it [laughter]. I love it! [Laughter]
AD: Well, if they weren’t attractive we’d call you biased, but unfortunately it’s just a fact. The company is over 112 years old, and as we just heard in that very sort of touching ode of gratitude from Roman, he’s grateful that a company like Carl Hansen & Son has survived and is still churning out with the same degree of quality and craftsmanship that you always have. And so how do you do it, from a business perspective, how do you do it and what is the trick?
EH: Well, I must say we do work with a craftsman and this is very important for us, that the craftsmen are well educated and we do that ourselves. I mean we have a big exclusive workshop for apprentices, we have 25 apprentices here in the factory and they learn the trade right from the basic. How to make a drawer, how to make a piece of furniture like they used to do in about 100 years ago. And then we slowly but surely build them up to at the end being able to operate a CNC, electronic machine.
Some of them that have a flair for it, they learn how to program and things like that. So you know, we stay in with the technology, but the craftsmanship is still there and we still work with lots of craftsmen here in the factory, so the whole finishing of the furniture and the surfacing and the weaving and the upholstering and all that is all done by hand. I think that it’s also part of the charm of the furniture that is that there is human people that have looked at it and have done things to it.
I think also the environmentally, an environment, environmentally part of the furniture means a lot. We work more or less exclusively in wood and nature’s own products like leather and wool and things like that and we also work, it’s sourced and things like that. So all waste from the factory is used for burning the heating up, 470 houses around the factory, with the waste from the factory. So nothing is left as waste, you can say. It’s being used for heating and this is also very nice.
AD: It sounds like your values are in the right place, you’re investing in your own longevity by training workers, so you’re offering not only opportunity to people who want to learn, who want to acquire this craft, but you’re also ensuring that you have a workforce to pull from that has the standards that you need Make the types of projects that you make. But it also sounds like, I’m hoping that your sustainability measures are also cost-effective because -
EH: [Laughs] Well, it does cost money - But it is important for us that we have a clean conscience as well when we produce the furniture that we do. If we dirt and spoil the earth, I mean this is no good. But I think also that our customers demand it. They want, they love that it is a clean product and therefore, I’m proud to do it.
AD: Absolutely and that’s what I was kind of getting at. I mean hopefully they’re cost-effective but even if they’re not, it doesn’t do you any good to destroy the land where you’re doing the thing or the planet or alienate your customers or to operate just with cost-effectiveness in mind and not your greater sense of values for the society and the planet that you live on. That is really lovely to hear [laughter].
EH: I think we are just a little ahead of, perhaps a little ahead of everybody else, but because I think we all have to do it, it’s not a, if we’re becoming more and more conscious of it, and I think the next generation will demand it and be much more conscious of environment, of the environment than my generation have been. So I think that is important.
RA: I’ve got to tell you also that it’s beyond the way you make it because it’s also, when it goes out into the world, it is sustainable in that you hold onto it and that in itself is a huge thing. I literally have nightmares about the amount of landfill that our business brings into the world all the time. And so I’m a big proponent of people buying things that they can hold onto and that their kids can hold onto and that their grandchildren hold onto. And your furniture fits that bill and so it goes beyond the way you make it. It’s really, it has a life that I think also helps with the environment. It’s not disposable, by all means, it’s something that you keep.
AD: Agreed and I love that you brought that up Roman and I wanna talk about your creative process a little bit too because I find it fascinating. In the book, Design Commune, you said about your work, and I’m quoting you, ‘It’s not about us, it’s about the clients, so if there’s a hallmark in our work, it’s about making it feel as personal for them as possible. People’s identities and personalities are layered, so their interiors have to be just as layered. It’s about conjuring a physical manifestation of something extremely personal, an emotion, a desire, a dream.’
I mean this is a big question, but how do you go about [laughter] accomplishing that, it requires a tremendous amount of sensitivity. So can you give a sense of your process?
RA: Well, you know, it’s not that hard. All you need to do is you have to involve your client. You have to make your client a member of the design team. That’s just, that’s how it works. It’s their space, so to me it’s always been very clear, they have to be involved. And when I speak to a client for the first time, I make sure that they understand that that’s the way we work, that they have to invest their time and they have to be generous with their lives so that we can actually help them figure out who they are and how they want to live.
Because that’s really our goal, it’s to create spaces that reflect who they are and how they wanna live. So, it involves getting to know them. It involves, there’s a process that we go through, of asking questions and also showing them visuals because words sometimes are not enough. They’re never enough actually. So there is a process we go through and just really keeping them engaged throughout the process to that we make sure that what you’re doing and what you’re making is right for them.
And that’s the only way, that’s the only way we can do it. Usually the client that comes to us is, they come to us because they feel something, you hear it all the time. It’s like, I stayed at Ace and I just felt something. Or I went to a friend’s house and the way you did it, I just, I didn’t wanna leave the room and I didn’t know why. It’s always this thing, like I don’t know why, right? So it’s something that they felt.
And I think what they felt is just a great deal of personality in the room. They felt like someone lives there and somebody the other day said to me -
AD: It’s a personality, I have experienced several of your hotels, and I will say I felt the same thing, but it’s not just personality, there is a depth. I think probably because you don’t, yeah, there’s historical depth to what you’re designing, I feel like the references and the associations are not all from the same time period, so it doesn’t feel super specific and it allows me to be me while also feeling something that the room is adding.
RA: Well, there’s a lot of research that goes into it and also that’s the fun. Like I’m a big lover of what I call ‘brothers and sisters from different mothers.’ [Laughter] Which is a Swedish rug, like a Swedish rug and you look at it closely and you’re like, is that Swedish or is that Navajo? Right?
I’m fascinated by all those things which I’ve discovered later in life because I didn’t go to school for this. So I discovered it as I go along, right, and as I work on things and as the project calls for a certain kind of research. So that’s the fun for me, is learning, right, about things. so that’s why I really like taking projects that are very different in style because oh, time to learn about Spanish colonial, oh, time to learn about Danish architecture, you know what I mean? And so the process of creating something in that style offers, it gives me an education, you know?
You know I’m a big fan of Secessionism, the Secessionist period in Austria. So I went, finally, because I felt like such an imposter, like not ever going there and being such a proponent of it, right? And it was eye-opening, but I had already studied a lot of it and in a way I feel a little bit like Scandinavian designers is that way too. I feel like a big, yeah, like I’m a faker because I’ve never been there. And I have plans, actually, Steven and I had planned a three week trip last July, we had done all the work, had completely booked everything.
So we had to cancel it, but I’m still going to go, you know, as soon as I can because that is one of the best and most fun things about what we do. It’s acquiring that education and looking at how these things, how all things connect in one way or another. I’m fascinated by that, cultures that are on different sides of the world, have connectivity and in their history and their DNA.
AD: I love that we’re kind of connecting cultures from across the world right now in this conversation and I have to ask, have you been to Erik’s factory?
RA: No, I’ve never been to Denmark, are you kidding [laughter]. I’m dying, it’s like the next. I’ve been wanting to go forever and we were supposed to go to Denmark in July. So the pandemic kind of threw a wrench into that. But Erik, I’m coming.
EH: You must, you must and you are most, you are most welcome, I can tell you, very welcome.
RA: Thank you.
EH: I look forward to seeing you here, but come in summer, in summer please where it’s bright and light and beautiful. Now it’s dark and cold and misery [laughs].
RA: It’ll be in July or August, for sure.
EH: Very good, very good, yes.
RA: And have you been to California?
EH: Yes, oh yes, I’ve been all over the States, I’ve been all over the world, I travel a lot, yes. [Laughs]
RA: That’s the other thing about Danish design, I feel like it really speaks a common language with California. I really do, especially in architecture. I’ve looked at those Sorenson houses, Utzon and in fact there’s a house that’s in a portfolio that we did in San Francisco, we call it Handcrafted Modern is what the key word is for the, in our portfolio. But it’s a beautiful house that is hand built. It took seven years to build in San Francisco and it’s a small house. There’s quite a bit of your furniture in it actually. Yeah the clients favorite chair is a Fritz Hemington Signature Chair.
EH: Oh yes, yes, yes.
RA: It’s his absolute favorite chair and that house is completely inspired by these, the houses designed by Sorenson and Utzon, you know, in materiality and in scale and everything and it fits so well there. And so I feel like there’s a real common language between, especially in northern California and Denmark.
EH: San Francisco is a very, very expensive and big market for us. People there are quite European in their way of thinking and in their way of, how can you say, designing and building and so on. They seem, we seem to have a good reputation and a good; we’re very, very close to each other there. And we have a good market there, I must say.
AD: I feel like we have a pretty clear picture of the common language between California and Denmark in terms of this. Roman, do you have any ideas about the rest of America, is there a void or a space that Danish design particularly fills?
RA: Well, I mean because it is, in a way, so flexible, right, like it really can work in almost any interior, I feel like it is all over America already. It’s not an obvious thing, it kind of blends, you know, which is a good thing, honestly. It’s not about it calling attention to itself, it’s about it being integrated into whatever environment it’s in and I think that’s why so many designers go to it. It transforms itself.
AD: So this brings up something that I think about sometimes, which is it’s timeless, right, almost in this way that it doesn’t call attention to itself, but it’s so well made that it can last for generations and generations, so it becomes part of our subconscious, almost. Because it works in so many environments, it doesn’t call attention to itself in a way that stands out and yet it does add warmth and history and depth and care and love and generosity and craftsmanship and sensuality and all of those things. So how does timeless design evolve and not stay static?
EH: We are also working with young talented architects in Denmark and internationally also. And I must say there’s still talent there and there are good ideas and we are kind of building onto what the old masters left us. It’s taking it from there and we have some young talented architects which are bringing out products now which I must say I’m very impressed of. And we have a fantastic sofa that is coming out now called Sideways and Sideways is a funny name but when you sit in it, it’s a two seater, you get to see each other.
You actually, you have, you’re facing each other and it is a young architect called Rikke Frost and her thinking of doing that sofa was that she’s a little bit opponent to people sitting with their iPhones or their iPads and things like that and not speaking together. And she made a sofa that immediately you sit in it, you’re half facing each other, you’re sideways, you’re sitting sideways and it’s a great thing. And we have tried it and people start talking to each other and what a beautiful thing.
And what a nice thought behind it, hey? And these are more modern ways of creating furniture and creating things in our everyday life which I feel is quite fantastic and very nice. Good, good thought behind it.
AD: That is a beautiful example of a response to our modern crisis of connection as we’re all sort of sucked into this digital divide and then currently with the pandemic, we’re even, a little more disconnected than we’ve ever wanted to be and when we are able to sit on the same couch again [laughs], what I want more than anything is meaningful conversation.
EH: Correct, correct, correct [laughter], I think the sofa has a great future! Laughter]
AD: This has been such an enlightening and charming conversation, I feel so grateful to have been involved. I loved hearing the two of you talk about your work, but also talk about how each of your work has influenced each other. I think that kind of intercontinental intergenerational creativity is baked into both of your companies in terms of how you operate. And it’s been just so lovely to be a part of it. So I just want to thank you both very much.
EH: Thank you for having us. It was a great pleasure.
RA: Yeah, it’s been my pleasure, really.
AD: Hey thanks for listening. To learn more about Carl Hansen & Son and Commune Design, read the show notes. Click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to Cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you would please do us a favor and rate and review, it really does help us out. We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, you can find us at Clever Podcast and you can find me at Amy Devers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Laura Jaramillo and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk.
Portrait of Knud Erik Hansen
Portrait of Roman Alonso, designer and founding partner of Commune
Inside Carl Hansen’s first workshop in the town of Odense, Denmark (PC: 100 Years of Wegner)
“I’m a very practical person and I feel like design does not work or is not good unless it works well. I’m not as concerned about aesthetics as I am about the way things feel and the way things work.”
- Roman Alonso
Inside Carl Hansen’s first workshop in the town of Odense, Denmark (PC: 100 Years of Wegner)
Three generations of Hansen at the 50th Anniversary of Carl Hansen & Søn in 1958
“Of course I loved the business, I love the company. I have followed it and I’m the last person in my family that has known everybody who worked on it, even Carl Hansen. I have sat on his knees while he read Donald Duck for me. I know them all and they are still very fresh in my mind and I must say that gives me a great respect for what they did and for what I have today. Because every generation has done something which is still living in the company, it’s still there.”
- Erik Hansen
unprecedented. In his first three weeks at Carl Hansen & Søn, Wegner designed four chairs – CH22, CH23, CH24 and CH25. CH24 is the product code for the now iconic and world-famous Wishbone Chair.
Hans J. Wegner Designing the Wing Chair in 1959
Wing Chair
“The first thing I bought, when I got to LA and got a new apartment, after leaving most of what I had behind in New York, was a vintage Wishbone Chair. That was original.”
- Roman Alonso
A student shaping the back of the iconic wishbone chair during a CHS Apprentice Workshop.
A lonely wishbone chair awaits to have its seat woven.
Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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