Ep. 132: Artist Malene Barnett
Malene Barnett is an artist, activist, speaker and legacy maker working in one-of-a-kind ceramic sculptures and bespoke textiles. Raised in Norwalk, Connecticut, she’s an authority on the cultural traditions and practices of art in the African diaspora and how it translates into the modern black experience. She founded the Black Artists + Designers Guild, and is on a mission to use art as a tool to expand the conversation around marginalization in the arts and create greater opportunities for inclusion.
Read the full transcript here.
Malene Barnett: We all have that ability to action and be involved in our community in some way. You get to define or decide what that looks like for you, but don’t think that oh because you’re not marching in the street that that’s the only way you can be an activist.
Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Malene Barnett. Malene is an artist, activist, speaker, and legacy maker. She works in one-of-a-kind ceramics sculptures and bespoke textiles and is an authority on the cultural traditions and practices of art in the African diaspora and how it translates into her vision of the modern Black experience. She is also the founder of the Black artists and designers guild, a global platform and curated collective of independent Blaack artists, makers, and designers. And on the board of SERVE, an organization that provides emergency loans to artisans and craftspeople during natural disasters. A passionate connector and expert ambassador, her mission is to use art as a tool to create community impact and open doors for the next generation of Black artists and expand the conversation around marginalization in the arts and create greater opportunity for inclusion. As you’ll hear, she is a true powerhouse and total delight. Here’s Malane.
MB: My name is Malene Barnett, I am based in Brooklyn, New York, I’m an artist, I’m an activist, speaker and legacy maker. My art and design practice focuses on textiles and clay and I create one-of-a-kind sculptures with the clay and bespoke carpets and textiles.
AD: That, that’s all, that’s all you do? [Laughter]
MB:Well you know, I think we’d have a more in depth conversation, so I’ll save all the goodies for later [laughs].
AD: Well, that is going to be later because I always like to start at the very beginning, like young, young Malene. Would you paint the picture of your childhood for me? I’d love to know, did you grow up in Brooklyn, what was your family dynamic and what kinds of things captured your imagination as a child?
MB: Sure, actually I was born in the Bronx, but I grew up in Norwalk, Connecticut, by the beach. Yeah, my parents were both from the Caribbean. So I’m first generation born in the US. And my mother, she’s from St. Vincent and my father is from Jamaica. I’m the second of three girls. And as they told me when I was born, they didn’t want to raise their children in the city, and my father at the time had a friend in Norwalk, Connecticut and they eventually bought a house there.
My parents, they divorced when I was young, I was about five years old and so my mother, you know, of course, took on the task to raise us. My father was still in the picture, but he wasn’t as active. He moved to another town nearby, which is in Milford, Connecticut, so we would see him on the weekends.
But my childhood, I had a fun childhood. My mother, she was an educator. She really believed and she had two things to do for her girls because there were three of us now, she needed to educate us and she needed to feed us, like those were her priorities. Everything else, you know, she figured as long as she gave us that, we would be able to become responsible women, and that was her goal.
And so when I was like eight years old, you know you’re a child, you’re always involved, you get the art supplies, whether it’s crayons, paint, you explore. But my teacher saw something in me at that young age and I was selected to be a part of an artistically talented program where we would draw and paint on a weekly basis. So in addition to the regular art class, I got this extra time.
And I do remember, even back then, how I loved drawing people and I loved drawing objects and I also remember the challenges, not knowing at the time that this was on the parameters around drawing people. I’ll give you an example. I was actually doing a portrait of my cousin who was living with us at the time and my teacher would only allow us to mix skin tones that were resemblant of white people.
AD: What?
MB: Yes! I could not mix past that tone and so now as a black woman, my cousin was black too, and much darker skin tone than me and I knew this because I had a picture, you know. We had pictures for our reference and so then that picture is actually hanging in my mother’s home and you know, again, the skin tone is, it would match a skin tone of a white person. And then I would paint my friends, but I couldn’t paint myself or anything because that wasn’t an option. It wasn’t until I got to high school when I decided to really focus on fine art because to be honest Amy, prior to that, one of the things my mother always exposed us to were the arts. And so she was a classical pianist when she came to the US and so she made sure that all of her daughters knew how to play the piano and the violin. And I actually stayed with both instruments for a long time, to the point where I wasn’t even able to do fine art.
But when I got into 10th grade, I said, you know what, I said mom, I don’t want to play the violin anymore, I want to go back to drawing and painting. And so from there I took over who I was going to paint, how I was going to paint and I focused specifically on drawing self-portraits so I wouldn’t have any deflection on what colors I could create, in mixing colors and I knew by drawing myself, there wouldn’t be a lack of representation of myself and my community.
AD: I’m feeling your frustration that you grew up with an art background, I mean how fortunate to be able to study art from eight years old -
MB: Yeah.
AD: And how discriminatory to put rules on what skin tones you can mix.
MB: Yeah and you know, it’s interesting, I look back at those paintings and I look at, I’m like, all of them during that period were you know, various white female friends of mine, you know, which was fine but the point is I wasn’t able to do anything else. And at that age you don’t question it because you’re not even sure what that was about. I mean it wasn’t until I got older that I really was able to dissect and understand that experience, which also led me to really taking a deeper dive into who I am.
During my last year of high school, Amy, I got a cultural awakening and it started with reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, which was a push for my sister, my younger sister at the time. This was the 90s, ’89, 90s, you know? Music, especially hip-hop was a huge influence on bringing awareness to black culture and people. And I didn’t have the connection because I didn’t know as much as I do now.
And it was that autobiography on Malcolm X that opened my eyes and then from there I just had this awakening and I started to read a lot more and taking a deeper dive into connecting my experience and my heritage to the continent of Africa, not necessarily connecting specifically to a country because I understand our history.
But again, looking at the similarities and how black people have continued to carry on with traditions, despite of all of the discrimination and racist system that we’re in, that we still have been able to thrive. So then I used, I started to take a deeper dive, when I went to college at SUNY Purchase, and my first, it was the first time I was able to study black artist. I had an African American art history class and that was my favorite class.
I made sure I did not miss that class, plus Amy, I was one of those students where I didn’t like to miss a day of school [laughs].
AD: I know the kind!
MB: I was one of those, I mean to the point, my mother was graduating with her doctorate at Columbia University and she said, “Malene, you have to miss school to come to the graduation.” I was so upset! [Laughter]
AD: Two fierce educators battling each other.
MB: Yes! I mean I’ll never forget that day, I sat there just sulking [laughs], I look back, I’m like oh my goodness. But yeah, I was the perfect attendant student, like I thrived on that [laughs].
AD: So this cultural awakening and this being able to study African art, I know there’s points in our adulthood when we sort of have to unpack the experiences of our childhood and we have to reconcile with them. I mean did you have some anger you had to process the world as you started to see it in more dimensions?
MB: Yeah, initially I was extremely upset, extremely mad, you know, that this information hadn’t been shared. I mean I went through 12 years of school and not even being able to celebrate black people, period? You know, and, and when we were celebrated, it was in such small pockets that it was the same people over and over. We know Dr King, you know, it was the same figure celebrated over and over.
But it wasn’t until I actually left high school and got into college and even college only provided a small window. I had to go and do the research on my own, by connecting with organizations that were outside of school, that would help to provide the information. I’ll never forget during my, because I stayed at SUNY, Purchase, Amy, for two years and I studied painting and photography. I really wanted to, hey, it was the 90s, there was no social media, no internet and I wanted to make money as an artist and I thought, I need to go into more of a commercial route.
So I transferred to FIT, the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York.
AD: I know it well, I went there myself.
MB: Okay, hey alumni! [Laughs] And so I studied fashion illustration first and believe me, I loved drawing people and figures, but I didn’t feel that that was going to be the career for me, for many reasons. I wasn’t the best and the industry was dying when it came to fashion illustration. But it was because of that experience, I was able to walk the halls of the school and I discovered textile design.
AD: So the industry was dying because it was slowly giving way to digital technology -
MB: That’s right, photography was taking over.
AD: But I could also see, just because I had attended FIT a couple of years before that, I mean it’s a great school, but the fashion industry itself would have been, I don’t know, it seems like a bit too narrow for what you have grown into expressing yourself.
MB: Yes, yes [laughs], very much so, very much. I mean you know, you don’t know what you don’t know at that time right?
AD: Right, totally, but you found textile design. I took a textile science class there and I was like, this is fascinating, I had no idea this is how polymer threads were made. And you know, jersey knits and stuff, it was, it was really cool, but -
MB: And expensive, right?
AD: Yeah [laughter].
MB: Very much so and to your point, that’s what textile [surface design?] allowed me to design for multiple surfaces, paper products, bedding, wallpaper, dinnerware, fabric, rugs and that’s how I discovered rugs.
AD: Man!
MB: Rug design, hmm-mm, never knew about it before.
AD: And your illustration, your painting and your drawing and all of that gets folded in, weaved in, if you’ll pardon the pun -
MB: Literally yeah [laughter] -
AD: Into your rug design.
MB: Yeah, exactly and you know, it was from that point in textile design where I was really taking a deep dive into my cultural journey, I’ll say. So I made sure every project that I had focused on, something from the black experience and if you told me it was a flower project, a floral, and by the way, Amy, I cannot stand drawing flowers that it just not my thing. But, I made sure, I said, well, I’m gonna find flowers that are grown say in the Caribbean or flowers that are grown in West Africa somewhere. That’s how I would approach my projects from a black lens, every time.
AD: Okay.
MB: To the point where I remember a dinnerware project I had where I said, okay, we have to design a dinnerware set. Well, I had just come back from Ghana because I wanted to do a study abroad. And I specifically wanted to go to a black country; I did not want to go to Europe. And I couldn’t find a program and I connected with a non-profit organization that had trips to Ghana, Senegal and they had this student exchange program and I said, that’s gonna be my study abroad. And the year I went, which was in, oh boy, look, I’m having my senior moment [laughs], it was in ninety five because that was the 25th anniversary of the Asantehene who was the king of the Asante people in Ghana. They were celebrating the silver jubilee. And this was like, you know, this does not happen often, one person ruling for 25 years. So I had the opportunity to go to the celebration, in Kumasi, Ghana and go to a huge stadium and watch how it filled up, one by one, and I even saw how they literally carried the king around the whole stadium, dressed to the T in his specially hand-woven kente cloth and you know, the jewellery and his whole entourage, all decked out.
It was just an amazing experience and so when I came back I said, you know, I’m designing my dinnerware for the royal family there. And you see how I would constantly; I use that as an example of how I would constantly connect, whatever project I had, to the black diaspora or the black experience.
AD: And were you getting resistance or were you just sort of, were people fascinated and welcoming?
MB: It depends on the professor [laughs]. I had some professors who questioned me and I was the type of student, well, if you’re going to question me, then you need to question my colleague who is doing flowers from Europe.
AD: Right.
MB: Why don’t they get questioned too?
AD: I mean that’s sort of a problem that art schools have been so steeped in the European aesthetic for so long that there are many scholars and designers who don’t really have a lens or a perspective on aesthetics and -
MB: Yes.
AD: References and heritage and culture from other places and so -
MB: And when they do Amy, the references are diluted to the point where the person who is actually creating is getting the credit and taking ownership of it. And that’s part of the problem with our education systems, focused specifically on design because we know the whole system has issues. But since we’re talking about design and how these sources coming from the indigenous communities around the world and I’ll say indigenous because that is black indigenous, that is Native American indigenous, it’s the indigenous communities who have been creating before any of us right?
But yet, we’ll look to the communities as the source, inspiration for our work but we don’t lead with that in our conversation when we talk about our work. It’s always about what we did, what we did and I’m constantly in conversation about this, especially with my work. I make sure that I’m leading with my community, my people and the process because that is just as important as the final product, or the final space or whatever it is that you’re creating.
AD: I totally agree with you. I feel like that vernacular of attribution; the language of attribution needs to be baked into the way that we talk about our work.
MB: Yeah.
AD: Because without it, like you said, it gets diluted and appropriated and confused and mischaracterized throughout history and because everything has been so European for so long, there’s, it hasn’t been necessary to say, well this has a European or a -
MB: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
AD: It’s fallen away from how we talk about our work, but the problem with that is it opens the door to appropriation in ways. And I totally agree with you, in the same way that storytelling and representation is important in everything, I think the language of attribution is really important in how we talk about everything.
MB: Yes, it is, even more so now than ever, you know -
AD: Especially with social media because -
MB: Yes.
AD: You put some work up on social media and people think it’s a recipe, like a DIY recipe for them to copy it -
MB: Yeah, it is, yeah.
AD: And we’re losing as a culture the appreciation and the value of original work, original art and creativity. Anyway, I am on a soapbox and this is about -
MB: Oh, no, no, no, but no this is actually the work that in the conversations that I’ve been having Amy, it’s so important because you’re on point because the idea of original design, I think we even lost what that is because so many of us are so focused on looking at finished work, finished product. We’re not thinking about the process at all. It’s like, I talk to interiors designers a lot and I say, one of the things, don’t look at someone else’s finished space, that just blocks your creativity because you’re focused in on how can I change what’s existing versus investigate processes on how things are made.
Because when you come from a perspective of process and materials, then it’ll allow you to create and so that is one of the focuses on my practice, Amy, that I really hone in on the processes, the material and then what kind of message do I want to express to the community. What part of my experience do I want to focus in on? Because then it gives you a full picture of whatever it is that I produce and you’ll have a better understanding and then also my goal is that it’ll encourage you to go deeper into the conversation of what I’m doing so then you as an individual will have a better understanding too.
AD: I love that you said that and it’s so true because there is, there is a warmth and an approachability about your work, but it’s also like inherently fascinating. And I look at it and I want to know more about your process and I want to know more about how it came to be, your conceptual. We’re going to unpack that too [laughs] but I agree with you too and because you and I were both trained before social media, we had to filter our inspirations, I think through much more of a physical kind of visceral feeling of what that spark feels like physiologically.
I can feel my heart racing when I stumble upon a concept and it might be a material, like a vintage vinyl that’s associated with auto upholstery but the associations of that become a language I can use in a storytelling form in terms of form and sculpture. And I think that that’s what you’re talking about too, is when you’re working with materials like fibre and clay, you’re processing the inspiration in a very physical sense. Not just like scrolling through images and deciding what you like visually and then trying to replicate it.
MB: Yes, exactly, no, it is and I think to your point, you know, I think one of the benefits of growing up in the 90s or being in school at that time, we did not have access to all the social media, to your point. And we literally had to go to a community, or to a place to experience it. And that’s why travel has been like a huge factor as far as my process and really helping me to hone in more. It contributes another layer to the work that I’m doing because I’m the type of artist where if I read about something, I want to go see it for myself, I want to go experience it for myself.
I want to get connected to the people who are actually making and so that I also have a better understanding of the process.
AD: Well, you’ve done a fair amount of residencies that sounds like that’s kind of your thing?
MB: [Laughs] Well, it’s part, it’s part of it. I mean I’ve done a few and I’ve created my own and see that’s the thing too, when you have a desire to be with a group of people or with a material and you don’t, you may not have access to it in your own environment, you know, or maybe there’s not a program, you know, you, the idea of being curious and creative of making that happen in your life is another layer to this, to the creative process.
And so I’m one where I do my research and I say hey, I want to learn about blah-blah-blah, there must be something out there and until I’m, I’m relentless, until I find it, I’m not gonna stop.
AD: You still don’t miss a day of school do you?
MB: No, [laughter], I know, but you see it’s that focus and determination, you know and the curiosity of wanting to learn and know and that is part of it too. You know, we, it’s interesting, that I would hope people would just constantly stay curious because that’s part of the learning.
AD: It’s the motor that drives the learning.
MB: Yeah! And I’m always in that mindset, whenever I’m doing, and questioning, I’ve been questioning things since college, well, way before college you know.
AD: Since they told you not to mix skin color darker than a white person!
MB: Yeah, you know, but you know, and that’s the thing, we don’t question because again, the conditioning of society, we’ve been so conditioned on many levels, not to question. And just accept and then figure out how we’re going to adapt.
AD: Well listen, I want to get an overview of your professional practice now because it sounds like you’re not just all about the admin, like you’re continually feeding your curiosity and learning and travelling. What does your professional practice look like, just practically, on the day-to-day and then also [laughs] -
MB: Uh-huh, well pre-COVID or post-COVID?
AD: Well, yeah [laughs], big difference there. But I mean I also wanna get a sense of like, you’re an activist and a speaker, the purpose, how the purpose gets woven into the practical considerations and then you know, even from a spiritual perspective.
MB: Three years ago I decided that I didn’t wanna focus on textiles or rug design solely. I got to a point in my professional career where I was feeling like my voice wasn’t being heard creatively. I was designing, you know, rugs for some big, big projects, well-known brands that most of us would know, from Saks Fifth Avenue, Viacom, Marriott, had some wonderful projects. But I also realized too that my creativity was being silenced.
And I didn’t want that anymore and I decided to take a sabbatical Amy, I took two years off.
AD: How brave!
MB: Yes, at the height of my career, you know, I was at the height of the business. But you know, when your soul and your gut constantly is speaking to you, you have to listen and I did not, listen, I didn’t go to school and study the way I did to become a designer where my ideas were not being executed in the way that I would love them to be. And so I said, I’m taking a step back and I want to explore new medium. Long story short, that is how I found clay, by going back to that college course, African American art history and looking at specifically the women during the Harlem renaissance period that I really admired.
And sculpture kept coming out in that. There was this theme of sculpture and I was very interested in potentially sculpting figures. So I just said, let me start looking at their journey, their path, like what did Edmonia Lewis do during her time and what did Elizabeth Catlett do and you know, Lois Mailou Jones, Augusta Savage, I just started to go back. And they studied at different universities, they had travelled and Edmonia Lewis at the time where it was her journey that captured my attention at that moment.
And she had gotten kicked out of Oberlin College, you know, somebody liked to her, and this is like in 1800, so you imagine only black woman, and she’s an artist, a sculptor at that. She left and she went to Pietrasanta, Italy and she studied marble carving there. She was a bad-ass carver and sculptor and I said, I wanna follow in her footsteps because she wasn’t able to continue and you know, I believe that our ancestors teach us a lot and it’s for us, the next generation to continue to push whatever agendas they had forward.
And so it took me to Italy to go study figure sculpting, I figured hey, if I had guidance I could create a figure that you know, you were able to connect with. It wasn’t about replicating that person exactly; it was about, can I create life out of clay and where people would be connected to in some way. Mission accomplished! Then it drove me to, I had a residency at Greenwich House Pottery in New York City, it was an amazing experience because I had four months to really explore the medium and I focused on looking at the process from mud architecture, of Mali, Ghana, Burkina Faso and Nigeria.
So again, I looked at those processes and then I implemented them in creating a series of 25 vessels. So that was the next step. And then after that I realized, I’m hooked, this is where I wanna be. I wanna be with the clay; I want to take a deeper dive. I signed up for a community space and then I was really determined to go back to the continent to work alongside women potters. And that brought me to Ghana, West Africa, last summer.
AD: Again, so this is a return to Ghana.
MB: Yes and I’ve been to Ghana a few times, actually, yeah, a few times [laughs]. And so mind you, this return, I hadn’t been to Ghana since 1996 and so I went back in 2019, of course there’s still lots of memories from my trip from ’96, but 2020 was a different experience because again, I was actually going to work with the potters. And I connected with the women and the women do the work, they do this pottery work. And they had a specific technique, which it was hard [laughs], it was hard!
But it was so fascinating to watch them and see how simple a practice can be. There’s no table, there’s no banding wheel, it’s all hand built, okay, and I just loved how they worked with the materials that were around them. Fabric smoothed out the surface of the clay, you know, it was an open fire so just using you know, trees and branches, open fire, that’s how they’re firing. Pots were very simple but the technique was very interesting because they start with the top and then they create the bottom, which is not the, a typical process in hand building.
Usually you’re starting with the bottom, but they start with the top. And so I spent, you know, a few weeks with them learning their process, getting to know them and you know, we became family because I mean, the other part Amy, as a black woman, one of my ways of connecting with my culture is I constantly think about what if we didn’t have the whole Atlantic Slave Trade, that we were kidnapped and brought here to the Caribbean, South and Central America?
If all of that did not happen, I think about the work that I would be doing and I feel I would be working in clay and textiles. So I’m constantly channelling that energy back to the processes that we’re still practicing to this day.
AD: And I’m just totally mesmerized because I can, you took me there with you to Ghana with working with the women, so close to the earth, so significant to you in terms of your heritage and to even, I mean it’s a really profound thing to re-imagine the history without the slave trade as a big part of it.
MB: Yes.
AD: It’s enormous, I don’t even really know what to say about that but I can feel that that would have been a really transcendent, to be there, working in clay alongside those women in a manner that may have been your original destiny.
MB: Yeah, and you know, and I was working specifically with the women in the village and you know, I learned about, there was just so much that I learned about with them. But then I was also, even though I was working in clay I was also able to capture the moment through my photography, that’s my other love. And I was able to capture portraits of, you know, women who were 90 years old. It’s not necessarily that they’re getting their portrait taken every day but they asked me to take their portraits and I was like yes!
And so then everyone wanted to get their portrait taken, I thought that was amazing, you know, opportunity to capture a period in history, a period in my life and then to capture them in their natural state.
AD: Oh yeah, especially after somebody who was sort of forced to erase black people from your early art work.
MB: Exactly, exactly! And I’m constantly making sure that we’re represented in all aspects of my work and so then I came back to the US, you know, and then I decided, okay, I’m really, I’m, again, I’m in my moment, this is where I wanna be for a long time, clay and I realized Amy, I wanted to take a deeper dive.
AD: Deeper even, all right, I’m going with you [laughter].
MB: Yeah, even deeper, because you ask about what my practice is, so this is why I have to lead up to, because I go back to my mother and being educator and how important education is. I decided that I wanna go back to school, I wanna go to grad school and I wanna study the material but I also want to do more research, more research around connecting my experience in America to the Caribbean, to West Africa.
And I decided to, you know apply for grad school and lo and behold, this was now, mind you, this was the third time that I’ve applied for grad school, but I got accepted, I had like five offers. And so come this fall, in a few weeks, I’ll be going to Temple University to pursue an MFA in ceramics.
AD: Congratulations!
MB: Thank you, thank you.
AD: Also another brave move!
MB: Yes [laughs], I haven’t been in school in 20, what, 26 years now.
AD: You’ve been in school your whole life, don’t lie.
MB: I’m taking the time to think about my work, not just about, again, creating pretty products, I want people to be educated more, even myself, around the processes and understanding what black design is. What does that mean in relation to where we are now? So I want to spend that time to find some answers to it and it won’t be one answer.
And that’s really what I’m looking forward to, is the discovery of how we are continuing to use these materials, keep in line with tradition and how that, bringing it back to the source. So it’s this constant circle of the black people in America, black people in the Caribbean, black people in Ghana, and how that thread continues to run through our life, and how we express it through our craft, through our design, through our art.
AD: You know, I just had this image and maybe it’s not, in my head I always kind of think in graphic metaphors, but the European tradition has this really strong thread, you know, with no breaks in it and the African and many indigenous traditions are, especially in American culture, is sort of like a dotted line and it feels to me like you’re going back to strengthen those areas of the thread that have gotten frayed.
MB: Yes, yes.
AD: So that it’s a clear through line and it can continue on, as you talk about your work, it’s a modern interpretation of the black experience. So it’s building on the existing heritage, not just replicating antiques -
MB: That’s right.
AD: But in order to do that, not in order to do that, but part of that, the purpose of that is to create that clear through line, that clear thread with no breaks, no frayed areas where it can last.
MB: That’s right, that’s exactly the work that I’m doing. And there have been so many breaks, it’s like we think about weaving, you know, we just had to, the thread has been so thin and it’s thinned out where it has broken, but when I think about it physically and when I think about it spiritually, it hasn’t been broken, it’s just that the world has broken it.
What I’m doing is innate to me, you know, it’s the work that I’m supposed to be doing and now I’m in this position to really mend that broken piece, the broken pieces, because there are many. And I want to be the connector between the tradition, you know, creating the legacy work that I’m doing and the community because what’s happened is the information has not been dispersed to the community on a mass level.
It’s there, but it’s been few that are continuing to take, absorb the information and take it in and they’re only able to disperse it at a minimal level because we’re not in a society that really embraces those stories and the narrative.
AD: Right and it feels kind of urgent because we don’t wanna lose those traditions, those practices to the, you know, as the people, the generations die out who know and carry them on.
MB: Yes, yeah, and that’s why it’s so important for us to document this, the information, not just in books, but in video, there’s, we just need to develop that archive because when you think about art design craft, especially when it comes to the black community, it has not been documented to the extent that it should. We need libraries with this information and the more libraries that we create with the information, that just also means the more educated people there will be.
AD: Well and yeah, the more like nutrient rich places for people to go discover and learn. I’m with you. And I think that’s all leading to why you founded Black Artists + Designers Guild
MB: Yes.
AD: Which is an amazing resource and just a stellar group of artists and makers, but also just been a really important platform for people to be able to discover Black talent.
MB: Yes.
AD: Can you tell me all about the founding of that and what kind of community you’ve been able to build and the successes and challenges that went along with it?
MB: Sure, during that sabbatical, I was able to take a step back and look at the industry from a different perspective. And I realised the same frustrations that I had back in college, I was still having 26 years later. At the time it was 25, you know, and I realized that it’s unacceptable and I cannot continue to just voice my opinion around the subject, which I had already been doing, you know, for my entire life.
And not make it more of a public thing. And so I decided to use the resources that I have and what I knew. I knew social media, I knew websites and I knew people, I knew black people. Plenty of black talented people around the world because I would constantly connect with them all, you know, whether it was from my travels, whether through social media, you know, I was always connecting.
So when you have events within this design industry, and this event was in New York where there were no black artists, makers, designers on the panels, you know, within the conversation. I said, enough is enough and I gathered up, you know, some of the people I knew, some people I didn’t know, but I sent everybody emails saying, hey you know, forming this collective, here’s why, would you like to join, it’s going to be a directory because I personally did not want to hear that, the excuse we can’t find any black designers, artists or makers.
And I knew that the same frustration was in my colleagues, they were saying the same thing. This was not a personal thing and I feel that when you build a community, you know, it becomes a force and so we launched November 2018, online and the information went viral within the industry. The press were supportive and you know, we started to do our own events and really having conversation around what does black design mean, culturally, working towards writing our own narrative.
And then once we took a deeper dive, we realized our mission, our mission was, and still is, our mission is about creating a more equitable and inclusive creative culture. But also honouring our ancestry practices, honouring our story and working towards writing our own narrative and not the narrative that has been given or fed to us.
And so how we do that is through our collaborations within the organization, so currently we have a project that we’re working on called Obsidian, which is the Concept House, it’s a virtual Concept House where we are really focusing on the future dwelling of black family and what does that look like.
AD: Oh, fascinating.
MB: What happened was during Covid, everyone was meeting on Zoom and we were meeting on Zoom and I said, it’s time for us to work on our own projects and let’s come up with the concept of what we can do you know, and as a collaborative project, and you know, from that conversation grew the Concept House. And realized, I said we really need to create space specifically around the black family lifestyle because no one is really thinking about that.
And because we have so many layers to our family life, it’s multigenerational and it’s always been. But why aren’t spaces created for that? And then we’re also thinking about life after Covid, creating those spaces for quarantining and having spaces where it’s a cleansing before you walk into the space. Things like that too, but then we’re also thinking about sustainability, we’re thinking about futurism and black cultural processes, within the whole scope of this project.
We have set the space in Oakland, California for the year 2025. And then we’re also creating a space where we’re not thinking about what the nuclear family that has been, the idea around that of what has been fed to us, husband/wife, two kids, but we’re thinking about all the multiplicities, whether it’s the grandmother raising the niece or it’s the gay couple and maybe they have their in-laws living with them. Or if it’s a single woman and she has no children.
So this space will be able to support all of these different lifestyles and we’re really looking forward to it, it’s gonna be amazing. It’s gonna have its own website and it’ll be a virtual experience for launch in 2021, but it’ll be finished in 2020, in October. And so that is one of our projects. And then we also have our education fund where we believe in educating three generations of creativity.
We have our Creative Futures, which are our undergrad and graduate students, wanting to provide financial support during that period in their time. And then we have our Visionaries, which are like mid-career. We’re allowing those professionals to have time to develop an idea or participate in a residency. And then our Legacy Makers, those are our elders who have been practicing their RO design for many years and they still want to explore ideas.
And so yeah, [laughs] that’s what the Guild is about. And what has happened is that we have become this major resource ever since June when the murder of George Floyd has become very public and it’s gone global. And this awakening has happened and you know, to be honest we, we figured out, we carved a space for ourselves as the Guild to collaborate, to work together, to navigate this industry.
And then all of a sudden it was like a tsunami Amy that came at us where you know, corporations, individuals, wanting to support us. And you know, to be honest, it was like, wait a second, hold on a minute, at first, to be honest, what’s going on here? Like what just happened? Because in the black community, the sad part is, the incident that happened with George Floyd happens every day in our community. And the sad part is that it took this incident for the rest of the world to wake up to it, for something that’s been going on for centuries. Which has led into deeper conversations around, you know, racism, white supremacy and now it’s being talked about a lot more. Even though it’s been talked about for centuries, but all of a sudden now everyone is like, okay, we need to fix this, we need to fix this.
And they are like latching onto black organizations without really taking the moment for their own personal and internal awareness and then organizationally bringing awareness and then really understanding what the issue is. Because there’s been a lot of knee jerk reaction to this situation, which is only continuing to contribute to the problem. But on one level it’s good that people are waking up, but now it’s a matter of, okay, you’re awoke, not the point where this has been resolved because if people believe or think that this is gonna happen by sending a few donations or you know, featuring more black artists and designers, they’re fooling themselves.
This problem is so much deeper and it’s gonna take a generation, I think, to really get out of it. I think multiple generations to be honest. But the key is there’s willingness now. There’s willingness to make these impactful changes that will benefit us even when we’re gone.
AD: Yeah, I sort of liken it to, and you tell me if this is accurate or off base, but I sort of liken it to the maturation of a human. Like in our 20s we end up being really focused on our externals, how we look, how we attract a mate, if we wanna lose weight or clear up our skin. And that’s sort of the performative aspect of this movement, like people just realized, oh, we could be a lot prettier if we hired more black [laughs] people. And then in your 30s it’s sort of about the push to accomplish.
And some people are a little bit further along in terms of their corporate mission to include and have diverse rosters, but it’s not necessarily meaningful until you get to your 40s and you start to really do the inner work and unpack how you got to be the way you are and why you’re making these decisions and what your triggers are -
MB: Yeah.
AD: And you know, not everybody is in their 40s and doing the inner work yet.
MB: Yes.
AD: I do feel like there is some momentum and all the exponential energy we can put into that momentum will only help things grow and mature faster in terms of you know, working through the performative phase into the accomplishment phase and then into the real inner work phase.
MB: Yeah and to your point, we need to put that energy there, definitely. I just don’t want people to feel like this is, that there’s, one thing is there’s a competition and that it’s gonna happen fast.
AD: Right, no, that’s like asking a tree to grow to be, you know, really tall -
MB: Yeah.
AD: In like a year, if we just sort of like staff it with gardeners 24/7 and make sure it always [laughs] has water, it’s like no, you still have to let the tree grow in the way that it grows.
MB: Yeah and that there’s many layers, there’s many layers to this, there’s many layers. But I do see that it is helping people to, especially the people who have been oppressed and not just black people, we know there are many communities in the US and around the world that have been oppressed and now continue to be oppressed, but it’s giving them the courage to speak up.
I mean I’m seeing employees at the corporations, you know, finally sharing their experiences and you know, that they’ve held on because again, fearful of not having a job anymore and not being supported, not being believed, that this actually happened, you know? So there’s a lot of cleaning up to do, a lot. And I think if people understand that, that there’s this issue is so deep, deep, deep, deep and there’s multiple layers to it, on both sides because even as black people we’ve been so conditioned to react in certain ways that we haven’t spoken up.
Because fear of not being called on for the project, not being hired, not having a job, I mean there’s so many levels to it.
AD: Well, and I, just from personal experience, I’m obviously not a black person, but I’ve been in really toxic relationships where I was, you know, gaslit, let’s say, and it’s just so exhausting to be in a circular argument with someone who just will not let you be right or refuses to see your point. And that’s, I mean I can kind of see how you and black people have been talking about this for so long and it’s just been sort of swept under the rug or -
MB: Yes.
AD: Placated and now I think one thing that’s sort of beneficial about what’s, not sort of, actually beneficial is what you said, there’s an emboldening of being able to talk up, speak up about issues. There’s a willingness to listen and there’s a culture now of expecting and accountability. It’s no longer okay to brush under the rug it used to be.
MB: Yeah and especially being in design, you know how it’s not a transparent industry and it’s starting to, to your point, the doors are starting to be opened and you know, we really do need to know, like how this industry works because it has been very closed, you know? There’s so many layers like from the features, to the list, to the contest, to how are deals made, all of these things, you know?
But the transparency needs to be there and in order, once say individuals, organizations, companies, brands, however you want to call it, become transparent, then they have to be held accountable. And so until more of that happens, then we can really work to changing a new narrative because if we don’t know what you’ve been doing and how you’ve been doing it and how are we going to even move forward.
But what I am starting to see, that companies are starting to come forward and say certain things and do certain things and it’s like okay. But like with everything else Amy, to be honest, we just have to wait and see with a lot of this and because the things that are like the knee jerk reaction, we’re gonna see how they pan out because there wasn’t a lot of thought behind it. It was like, okay, we got to do something. But that may not have been the right thing, but we will see, because time will always tell [laughter]. Time will tell.
AD: It will. Well, I want to, I don’t want to take up too much of your time, but I definitely want to unpack the creative process, you’ve told us a lot about your process and the materiality, what about the process of activism?
MB: Oh, process of activism, it’s always been, it’s always been in me [laughs].
AD: But there’s a creative process there too because I think a lot of people, you know, there’s a stereotype of an activist, of somebody who is just sort of angry a little bit all the time and carrying a sign and standing on a soapbox and I think activism is a lot of storytelling and helping to inform and entertain people, changes their minds. And I kind of see through your work, but you’re also, just your very being, by creating the Black Artists + Designers Guild, by going back to school, it all feels like activism to me, I guess is what I’m saying.
MB: Yeah, I mean yes, sure, we can’t buy into the stereotype of what activism is because it does come in many forms. And I think that’s what people fail to see when we think about that word. To your point, they just think oh, you should be marching in the streets, having a sign, right. That’s just one form, but activism is really bringing the community together. The overall arching you know, action behind it is how are we bringing the community together and we have a message of why we need to do that and then we show how we’re executing that.
But I’m a visual person, I’m a visual learner and I have always been that way, so when you ask about the creative activism, the Guild is one element of it, my work is another element of it. You know, when I’m speaking, that’s another part of it. So putting all of that stuff together is my activism. I believe that there has to be an element in your life where you give back. My mother always taught me that, you know, there has to be some.
And that’s part of activism too and I look as the Guild as my give back and there’s more to come with it because I want to be able to provide visibility, opportunities, you know, for our members and the community because when we provide for the members, it’s helping the community because that new generation who wants to be in the creative world, finally they’re gonna see a collective, a group of people that look like them and have shared experiences.
And they could see there is, design is a viable career or art is a viable career or being a maker is a viable career. I didn’t have that when I was in school and so I wanna be able to make sure that my generation, that we create that. So there’s no more question about whether you could be an artist, is one, and even whether you could be an activist. Because activism is about taking action and I think we all have that ability to take action and be involved in our community in some way.
And so you get to define or decide what that will look like for you, but don’t think that oh, because you’re not marching in the street, that that’s the only way you could be an activist. It’s not, there’s multiple ways.
AD: I hear you saying this and this is all you strengthening those frayed areas of the thread or the fabric. You’re marching, not marching, but yeah, you’re headed, you’re taking your energy and your purpose and your values and you’re going straight to the areas that need strengthening and, and you’re building there. I sort of feel like that’s, that’s my style too. I decide what side I’m on and then I build something -
MB: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and I’m constantly thinking about how can I be, like even with the industry, I said, how could I be of better service to a community, I’m looking at the design community, how could I be of better service. And I’ve been again, during my sabbatical, I’m able to see the gaps.
AD: Yeah.
MB: You know, I’m like, guess what, we don’t, we don’t connect with the scholars in this industry to have these conversations about you know, what is modern design, how was it created? Where are the black people during this conversation? You know, what type of work is considered blah-blah-blah, like who came up with these words? Traditional design, transitional, you know, questioning all of that, you know. And so -
AD: Primitive
MB: Right? And so I thought to myself, well you know, I really enjoy research, I really am big on that process as we’ve had this, you know, in our conversation and so how do I put all that together for the next phase of my life? I’m going to be 50 years old in two years and I’m thinking about life from a different perspective. The work I’m doing, it’s legacy and I know that the legacy I want to leave and so every day I think about how am I adding to that so it could impact the community and be of service.
Because there will be a time when I will not be here and so I just wanna know that the work that I’ve left behind, has not just impacted me and my family and my inner circle, but the community. That they all get to experience something from it and that they’re benefitting from the work that me and my generation and the community are doing now.
AD: That is so powerful but I got sad when you said there’s a time that you won’t be here [laughs], I don’t want to fast forward to that time.
MB: I know, I, I’m not trying to fast forward to it, I’m not, it’s interesting because especially as we get older we face death more often now, you know and it does get you thinking about it from a different perspective. I always tell my friends, I wish we talk about it more so it won’t be so hard for us to deal with. Believe me, I have my moments too, but I do understand that that’s one thing we can’t control. We cannot control it, we don’t know when it’s gonna happen, but that’s why it’s so important for us as individuals, as a community, to take each day as an opportunity to do good, be respectful and embrace what it is you have and what we have in other people.
And so how do you that, and that’s the constant question, and be of service, how do you do that? If you’re creative, how are you using your work as a tool to benefit the community? If you’re a strategic planner, how are you using those services to help a community? Whatever it is, we all have that ability and so, and just understand that the work you’re doing, it really is the legacy work and just how do you want that legacy to be told?
AD: Yeah, I, I mean I, I think about the objects that are passed down from history and they are vessels of meaning. They are artefacts of stories, of lives lived and they are a means for us to understand ourselves by learning about our ancestors.
MB: Yeah.
AD: And I absolutely believe that the objects, the products and the produce of this generation is travelling, hopefully, towards a more meaningful end of the spectrum, away from just sort of rampant consumerism and disposable things -
MB: Yes, yes.
AD: Because I know personally, I don’t, when I surround myself with disposable objects, my life feels less meaningful and I only want things that I know the story, that I can say, this was made by my friend Malene Barnett, you know, and here’s where her inspiration was and this is why this object is so precious to me.
MB: Yeah.
AD: Or plates that were handed down from my grandmother, they’re not precious but they have a story and they have actual connection to them. And I feel very, very strongly, the nature of your work is so much about being able to transfer that meaning through the generations. And it’s not ego driven, and yet you’ve got to have confidence to be such a trailblazer that you are [laughter].
MB: Thanks, yeah, and when you’re doing this type of work Amy, you know, you really can’t think about, oh, am I doing the work because I wanna get paid? Seriously, you know, that is a big equation, especially when we’re dealing with capitalism to the utmost, you know? Like the purpose of the work, you know, you have to decide and I made a decision when I took that sabbatical that what is important to me? It’s not focus on the business, it is focus on the legacy work and that’s what’s important to me.
AD: Have you found, and this is gonna be a weird question, you don’t have to answer if you want, but have you found that with your focus off of making money, the money has come anyway?
MB: It has, yeah, it has. You know, we don’t talk about, of course, the business of art and all of that because of course there’s many and of course I do have to live, it’s not as if I don’t have bills to pay, you know? Of course I do but I’ve also had to set up other channels of income, so I can be, so I can be in a position to focus on the work and not, not rely on income from the legacy work that I’m doing because that distracts from the creativity. So if I had to make a vessel to sell, to pay my bills, that is where the distraction comes in. So, and this is not just for artists, but for anybody, as an individual, we have to have those multiple streams of income and so I knew that I needed to set that up and I had been doing that prior to taking my sabbatical. So I could really hone in and focus on the work that I’m doing.
AD: I do think there’s also, it’s sort of a counterintuitive, especially in this capitalist society, a counterintuitive idea that when you’re not focusing on making money, you’re making better work and that is getting noticed and people are seeking you out and you end up making money because you’re making better work. Even if they’re not buying your new stuff because it needs time to become understood, it’s still drawing energy towards you. It’s more of, I guess, an abundance kind of thinking than a scarcity mindset -
MB: Yes.
AD: Which is, I just need to make money and my greatest hits are the only things that are pulling in money, so I better make more of those, but then you end up carving this deeper rut for yourself where that’s all you’re known for, and when that’s out of style, you’ve got nothing.
MB: Yeah, yes.
AD: And your soul is depleted and you’re exhausted and you wonder what it’s all for [laughs].
MB: Yes, yes, because, I mean when we think about it Amy, let’s be realistic, how much more work or product, objects do we need? Like we really don’t right?
AD: No, we need better ones and we need culturally to understand that it’s not about designing them so that they break and you buy a new one, it’s about passing them down from generation to generation.
MB: And, and that’s what I was gonna get to, exactly. So that’s what I’m saying, when you think about the purpose of why you’re making versus, oh, I need to make a new collection because the industry has taught me, we got to make a new collection every year [laughs]. You know, you get caught up in that. I’ve been there, versus what is the purpose? How is this adding to the legacy? You know, how is this gonna impact the community. You’re coming from a totally different mindset with your creativity and you will make less. And guess what too, what I’ve learned too Amy is that everything is not for sale.
AD: Tell me about that?
MB: Yeah, everything I make is not for sale and everything, you know, and that’s, and I think that’s the conditioning that we have. People see things and are like, oh, are you selling it? Are you selling it? How much? Everything is not for sale.
AD: Yeah, no, some things, I mean your work is a offering of your soul and some of that doesn’t have a price, it’s still a part of you, it’s still a part of your being, to stay in your community, in your family and be a part of your personal legacy and -
MB: Yes and you know, or displayed publicly, so more people can experience it but not necessarily having to be on the track of oh, it’s for sale at blah-blah-blah. You know, there’s different ways and I’m not saying that, you know, selling work, selling work is a great thing, but also have to remember too, and this is something I have to say to myself, that just because somebody asked how much, it doesn’t mean you have to sell it.
AD: So, before we wrap up I just wanna know if there is anything, any, you get interviewed a lot and there’s a lot going on in your life and in the world and I wonder if there’s anything that you wanna talk about that we haven’t talked about yet or that you don’t normally get to share?
MB: Oh boy Amy, you’re making me think right now. This has been something that I’ve always been thinking about as far as the industry and I’ve been dreaming of classes. Classes that would be, those classes that I’ve always wanted to have, that, an art school. So, I would always study West African textiles, whether it was kente cloth, mud cloth, kente cloth, you know and the processes. And I think about how do you know, how does education become, how can we decolonize education? And you know, one of the ways is by incorporating courses like handmade textiles from Nigeria, I’m just making it up. It would be a dream to have those classes, or beading work from, let’s say weaving from the Mayans, something like that.
I’ve been listening to a lot of different podcasts about this subject and it just got me, like ooh, that would be so amazing and how different those creators would be coming out of a program like that. Even for someone like ourselves who have been out of school for so long, to go back and experience those types of courses. I see it coming and I’ll tell you this Amy, I’m sure that one day I’ll create something like that because I - and nobody will be surprised but I feel that coming. And I constantly am thinking about what’s the next business, it’s around space and I know it’s gonna be around space, around creating those courses because sometimes what I’ve learned, and this is part of activism, you can’t wait for an institution, a company or an organization to do something. You have to go out and do it yourself.
AD: Yeah.
MB: And once you build it, people will come. I know in the future, and closer, the future is always, the future is just about, the technicality, you know, the next five years, the next few years, which is not a long time from now, but I do see myself creating those spaces for people to learn about the arts and crafts of the black diaspora. Where that space will be, I’m not sure yet, but wherever it is, I know you will come Amy, and the whole rest of the world is gonna be a space where they’re all gonna wanna come to and learn and just be. I’ve just been really thinking about that and this next step of going back to school is really gonna help me get closer to that goal.
AD: I have goosebumps and I’m already there [laughter].
MB: I wanna sign myself up and I can’t yet.
AD: [Laughter] I know, it’s so exhausting, but it’s so meaningful. Is there a project with your own work or with Black Artists + Designers Guild or something that you’d like our listeners to keep an eye out for, follow up on, check into, support?
MB: Well I would say our main project is the Concept House -
AD: I’m so excited about that!
MB: That is our major, you know, you know, there’s opportunities for sponsorship and you know, we’re gonna start to really market it in the next few months. But definitely that’s something to look out for, for the Guild. Plus there are gonna be some other collaborations that I can’t talk about just yet, but just stay tuned. There will be product collaborations with the Guild as well and then I’d say for me personally, right now I have two ceramic shows going on right now.
One is at Greenwich House Pottery, the other is at the Clay Studio in Philadelphia and I say just keep on a look out, there are gonna be a lot more gallery shows and a lot more opportunities for me to show my work publicly and I’m really excited about where that’s gonna take me.
AD: I’m excited too. Thank you for taking us all the places you [laughter] just took us.
MB: Thank you, thank you [laughs].
AD: Thank you for listening! To see images of Malene’s work and read the show notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to Cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. Subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you would please rate and review, it really does help us out. We also love chatting with you on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, you can find us at Clever Podcast and you can find me at Amy Devers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Laura Jaramillo and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk.
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Malene Barnett portrait by Alaric Campbell Photography
Malene as a kid
Ghanaian “upside-down” pots
Malene in Jaipur
Jaipur 11x14
Rug inspired by Chicago maps
Algae rug is gold
Ceramics by Malene
Alaric Campbell Photography: BAD Guild for Elle Decor
Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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