Ep. 121: People-Centered Designer Marquise Stillwell
People-centered designer Marquise Stillwell spent his youth in Ohio learning to be a good neighbor and going to art museums with his grandfather. Always part of a community of makers—auto factories, steel plants, engineers and industrial designers—his curiosity for people and spaces grew into a passion for creating systems and formulas that make built environments better for all people. Not surprisingly, his ability to be open, vulnerable, listen and hold space is at the center of his design practice.
Learn more about Marquise Stillwell at Deem Journal.
Read the full transcript here.
Marquise Stillwell: In order to save yourself sometimes you have to use and leverage the very thing that’s oppressing you to actually free yourself.
Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Marquise Stillwell. Marquise is the founder and principle of OpenBox, a people-centered design consultancy, cofounder of Opendox, an art and design-oriented documentary filmmaking company and co-founder of Deem Journal, a print magazine and online platform that centers design as a social practice. Additionally, he’s on the board of many other arts-driven and civic enterprises such as Lowline Underground Park, ArtMatr, Urban Ocean Lab and Creative Capital, among others. His curiosity and passion for people and spaces has grown into an agile and effective practice of creating systems and formulas designed to make built environments better for all people. An advocate of social fitness he’s a graceful pro at listening, holding space, being vulnerable and navigating change… Here’s Marquise.
MS: My name is Marquise Stillwell, I live in New York City and I consider myself a designer, bigger than that, I consider myself a catalyst for building communities across design, art and culture.
AD: I always love to set things up though by understanding a bit about how you came to be you. Can you paint the picture of your childhood for us, where did you grow up?
MS: I’m definitely a Midwestern kid living in a big city now. I was shaped by small town Midwestern principles of being a great neighbor, always looking out for others and my dad was a minister growing up and so a PK kid as well. He was also over community action and HeadStart, which has really brought what it means to be an activist. And then I was also introduced to art and design at a very young age by my grandfather, though he worked more of a blue collar industry job. He was also an artist and I spent a lot of time going to our local art museum, staring at paintings and understanding design and culture through that lens.
AD: Wow, I’m a Midwestern kid too; I grew up in Ypsilanti, Michigan.
MS: Nice, I’m not too far from that, I grew up in Mansfield, Ohio, it’s just in between Cleveland and Columbus, so I spent my formal years there and then I went to high school out in Denver, Colorado. But, so I’ve travelled fairly but my formal years is definitely a Midwestern kid in upper part of Ohio.
AD: You said you went to high school in Denver, so does that mean there was a big move?
MS: Yeah, so there’s a period of time where family decided to move out to Denver and that was a remarkable time for me as well, learning how to be the new kid, learning about the transitions into a new community. But it also opened me up to so many new ways of thinking, being out West is just very different than Ohio and definitely provided something for me that I did not have living in a small town where I could re-imagine myself and re-invent who I am.
AD: Oh, that’s really interesting because that’s in adolescence when you’re kind of sort of; we’re all fishing around for our adult identities then anyway. So you sort of were able to enact yours on a new stage?
MS: Yeah, definitely, definitely, that’s what; I believe those transitions of time and things that you go through, if you’re able to pull from the positive sides of those changes, can really develop you further and move you beyond any of the challenges that it may be presenting to you in the midst of those moments, ultimately you can always become better versus bitter.
AD: Oh! That’s something to hang on right now, ‘better versus bitter.’ I wanna talk about Openbox which is the human centered design consultancy that you founded and just by way of sort of connecting the dots I know that from high school in Denver you got an undergrad in advertising, an MBA and MA in economics and then you did some work in the world and circa 2009, is that about right, when you did Openbox?
MS: Yeah, yes.
AD: Help us understand what compelled you to start this business, why you named it Openbox, what’s the driving mission and what kind of work do you do and how does it play out there?
MS: Yeah, so 2008/2009 was a big transition year globally. I’d say that before COVID-19 we would have been looking at that as a real marker of time, to say a lot of things changed. And so Openbox, for me, was a new iteration of something that I’d been doing all my life and it’s taking the principles of design, which is really rooted in understanding how humans respond to their environment around them, whether that’s through an object, a chair that you’re sitting in, to a service.
To me the core idea of design thinking is around understanding the human element, people-centered design, the aspects of who we are and I felt like during that time period we were all going through so many different changes. I’d already been touching design in many different ways, but I’d never just pulled it all together to actually do something as formal as being more of a consultant with it and starting a firm named Openbox to do that.
And so in 2009 that’s when I started Openbox. The name comes from a gentleman by the name of Henry “Box” Brown, he was a former slave that put himself in a box and mailed himself to freedom, crossing the Dixie line to go onto Philadelphia and -
AD: That’s so ingenius, that’s such a great story (laughs).
MS: Yeah, no, it’s this idea of, in order to save yourself sometimes you have to use and leverage the very thing that’s oppressing you to actually free yourself. And for me Openbox is all about leveraging the things that I’ve gone through personally, or we’ve all gone through, using the framework of design, design thinking, to uncover new insights, to free ourselves, to create new opportunity.
AD: I mean Henry Box, to what you’re doing there, a lot of it is understanding the systems and the structural integrity of those systems and how to, I don’t wanna say work loopholes, but it’s leverage them -
MS: Yeah, absolutely.
AD: And you can do that when you understand them and then sometimes you know, they need to be undermined, which is, you can do that more strategically when you understand how they work too. Give us a sample of some of the projects that happen through Openbox?
MS: Yeah, so I’ll expand, so Openbox is three parts. We have the design consultancy part, so we work with different types of organizations, both for-profit and nonprofit. Our last project that we just finished was with MLK Library in Washington DC where they’re redoing and rebuilding that library. And we helped them to reimagine what is a library. Libraries have always been a place where you go, you want to check out a book, you’re doing some research, you get a book.
But today libraries serve as community spaces where people, when they first move to this country or move to the neighborhood, are looking for connection. It’s where you can go get your taxes done, it’s where you can get information about housing and food, and so the library as an idea, as an infrastructure, has changed and we wanted to make sure that the design, the redesign of this actually spoke to the neighborhood needs.
And so we did a lot of community engagement work. We hosted a lot of different events and moments to help inform the redesign of the library. So we were part of a larger team of other designers and architects, exhibit designers. But we, our aspect of it was focused on community, and making sure that we brought their voices in.
And then the other aspect of Openbox is Opendox which it’s a documentary film company. And so we do a lot of different types of documentary films, focus on art and culture, design, for the most part. We did a large film, documentary film in South Africa about three/four years ago. We just finished a now Bauhaus film, the story of Moholy-Nagy, when he left Germany and went to Chicago to form the Institute of Design or what became the Institute of Design. And then I also have a venture arm to what we do which we’re invested in a lot of different types of companies. Everything from robotics to Deem the magazine, the journal that we will discuss hopefully as well.
AD: That is comprehensive and it sounds like in terms of your brain that understands systems, you understood also not to silo yourself and that you could actually have a lot more impact if you touched different areas of communication and design and -
MS: Absolutely.
AD: And how money moves.
MS: Absolutely I mean we live in a system and systems design is really important. I cannot think about solving one problem that may cause another problem. And so I touch everything from, I have an urban ocean lab that I helped to co-found as a non-profit, all the way to working projects and artists around prisons, prison reform, all the way to arts and looking at robotics and what is the future of art and how we can leverage certain technologies like AI to help us enhance. And so it’s a full system of thinking and I’m able to learn so much by touching so many things that help to inform what the next thing is going to be as well.
AD: Tell me a little bit more about Opendox and why you felt storytelling in that medium was an important part?
MS: Storytelling is so important in everything that we do. So even on the consulting side, it is definitely an important part for us to make sure that the insights that we’re providing are real stories. And to amplify that is to leverage documentary films and so when we were in South Africa, I spent three and a half years going back and forth, I was doing a lot of ethnography work, you can call it film work and research, but it was truly getting to know the people who live there.
And understanding what they’re going through and then we’re using film as an output to express that but it’s truly storytelling and a lot of ethnography work. And so we’re leveraging design as a way to also do our films and understanding some of those hidden stories that people may not know about, this is very exciting for us. And also when people watch our films, one thing I always say is that for us it’s not about doing a film to answer questions. We’re not here to inform, we’re here to provoke and what I love most is that if someone leaves our film, we’re hoping that we provoked them to ask more questions versus us answering questions.
AD: I feel it, it’s sort of like turning a light on and then the person sees a lot of information that they weren’t seeing before and it just sets them on a course of discovery and question asking - and here we are having this conversation, it’s a platform for storytelling and I also believe in that wholeheartedly. I feel like people, it’s also a bridge, you said, in the beginning you said you were a catalyst for creating change in communities and I think storytelling offers that sort of narrative bridge to relate to the humanity of the communities and the people at the center of those stories.
MS: No, absolutely, everything that we’re going through right now as a society is being pushed up against the fact that people want to express themselves. People want to express themselves. People want to feel free, people want to feel heard, people want to matter. And what’s happening is that there’s only one side of the story that’s being told.
And when the other side is being told it is a distorted story, that it does not speak to the truth. And so for me being a catalyst for building communities is about making sure that everyone gets to speak their truth. Film is one way of doing that. Design thinking and working with communities, to help inform how their neighborhoods look, whether it’s through urban planning or through development, is very, very important because buildings tell stories.
Our streets tell stories, our restaurants tell stories and everyone should have their right to tell their story.
AD: Well, along the same line of thinking, you just launched a new project, you mentioned it, Deem, it’s a bi-annual print journal, and online platform focused on design as social practice, and congratulations on the first issue.
MS: Thank you!
AD: It centers the theme of designing for dignity and I’ve been diving into it and it’s amazing! It’s such a warm and approachable and nutrient-dense form of storytelling and I feel really connected to the people that have been profiled. So congratulations on that -
MS: Thank you so much, I really appreciate that.
AD: I really wanna know, you know, I wanna know a little bit about the mechanics, how it came together, the why and how and what it means to you and why you feel like a print journal is important right now?
MS: The genesis for us was, I initially, I had a different magazine that I was partnered with called Makeshift magazine and it was telling, you know, similar background in regards to telling global stories, but it wasn’t focused on design. It wasn’t focused on it, particularly as a social practice. And I felt like there was something missing and that there was a gap and an opportunity to tell stories while also giving the audience a framework, not a box, but a framework to help shape those stories. Which is why I believe design as a social practice, it is a really great framework to build a platform upon and Deem definitely represents that. Doing it in print versus only digital is because I do believe that having that tactile feeling is important and this goes back to some of my Midwestern upbringing and working with individuals and family members and being around industrial designers which really was, they worked in auto plant, they work in steel plants, they made stuff.
And I was always a part of a maker’s community and having something that’s tangible, that you own that you could pick up and read is a very different experience of just clicking through. Obviously clicking and scrolling is a way of life now, but I also don’t want to lose that ability for people to actually touch something and have some sense of connection through their hands, that’s very different. Which is why we spent a lot of time making sure that the paper was right, the layout was right and we spent a lot of time working towards something that people could hold and truly hold.
AD: I appreciate that so much. I’m missing the tactility of the pre-digital revolution. I agree with you that when you can hold something and you can leaf through it at your own pace, and you have an artefact that sort of lives with you and around you, it becomes a memento, it becomes a souvenir. And it has a residue that’s more personal than a web page you visited once.
MS: That’s right, that’s right.
AD: And that impact, I think, it can seep in and the stories can feel like something you can hold and I know that’s a metaphor, but it’s also literal. (Laughs) When you can hold those stories, you can hold them close to you, I think that’s something that’s really important. So I love that, you know, you’re making it accessible on the online platform and you’re also making it tangible.
MS: Yes, absolutely, it’s important to do both and we understand that, which is why it’s bi-annual, it’s not a monthly and it is a journal and that’s also something that was really important for us. That the journal speaks to some of the academic side of this and the rigor, making sure that there’s real rigor around the stories, rigor around the research as well as something that’s a journal that you can always come back to. I don’t expect someone to just sit and read all the way through it and just kind of throw it off to the side; I’m hoping that people go back to this.
That even though it’s bi-annual, even a couple of years from now they’re coming back to this first issue because it’s something they’re, that they weren’t ready for and now they’re like, oh, I think I read about that, let me go back and go back and read more about what that meant then.
AD: Hmm-mm and the stories are very, there is an academic rigor to them, they have substance, but they also have a real warmth and humanity to them, which is the kind of thing that doesn’t make it feel like homework.
MS: Absolutely.
AD: So, can we dive a little bit deeper into your creative process -
MS: Yeah absolutely.
AD: I’m fascinated because you do touch so many systems and so many ways to interface with communities and make things, you’ve talked about human centered design, you mentioned people-centered design which is, I know your focus. Can you break down for us what people centered design is and why that’s at the center of your work?
MS: Yeah, no, absolutely. I would say that what distinguishes us both as Openbox, the design firm as well as Deem, the journal, is our ability to understand the impact of culture in everyday life. And as individuals, the people-centered portion, we are all influenced by our environment. Our environment consists of so many different elements and inputs. Some of that is the fact that you and I can align on what it means to be from the Midwest, right, and there’s a culture in the Midwest. And understanding how that helps to inform how we make decisions and how we may connect with something is really important. The other piece of this is also our ability to dive deeper into culture as a black person and understanding this country and understanding our relationship to this country and what that means from a cultural standpoint is really important.
Just by nature of being born, I would say similar to women, we are born very dynamic. We are born very dynamic; we are born where we have to have, be multifaceted. I can’t just check off one box and focus on one thing because so many things affect my everyday life. And understanding how that works is really important to design. And I would say that the challenge with how do we move forward, particularly after COVID, particularly everything going on in social justice, is that everyone has to understand how they’re being informed.
And make sure that they have people who can represent that voice in their organization. And so our design process is always about making sure that we have real people who can be, have real insight into the work that we’re doing. And those individuals get to bring their whole self to the office, to the project. This is not about just taking frameworks off of a shelf or taking your education and just trying to apply it. It’s how do you live your everyday life? How are you human?
People want to talk to human beings. When you’re sitting and you’re asking someone in the neighborhood about their life, you’re not just doing some survey to check off a box to see if they like a certain type of a latte at a coffee shop. You’re asking them about their life. Like what makes them tick? The coffee shop is really just this interplay between their life as a way for them to move within their life.
It’s not a place where we’re all just, a destination, it is a place that plays into our neighborhood and we wanna make sure that we’re understanding the culture behind the way people are living their lives, not just checking boxes on what their desire is and how they just want to spend their money.
AD: That makes perfect sense and it also speaks to the sort of ethnographic component that whatever our notions are as designers, we can’t just slap them on a community and expect them to adhere to, to conform to that. It really needs to reflect the needs of the community and in order to understand what those needs are, you need to know the community.
MS: That’s right.
AD: But I think that’s scary for a lot of people, because it’s messy. It’s not a, you can’t start with a recipe and follow it, you have to do the work and then you have to construct something from all of these new unknowns (laughs).
MS: Right, which is why design as a social practice is so important because you have to be willing to be vulnerable. And the challenge with a lot of design today is that we just want to get it done and we’re not willing to do the work that will allow us to get it done right, which require us, not only to be curious, but to be vulnerable. And to go in not as experts, but as people who can hold space. The team that we have, it’s all about holding space. It’s about allowing whoever we’re working with to actually express who they are and we’re holding that space.‘
We’re leveraging some of our frameworks to prompt people, but we’re not coming in as experts. And when you let go of trying to be an expert, and come in with your preconceived notions, then that’s when greatness happens.
AD: That’s when you get to discover what you didn’t know and make something that’s more collaborative with the community, with it.
MS: That’s correct.
AD: And that’s everything because if the community feels invested and they feel some ownership and they feel reflected in what’s building around them, then they don’t feel ignored, unheard and dismissed.
MS: That’s right and that’s the problem, what’s going on right now is that people, they don’t see themselves in their cities anymore -
AD: Yeah.
MS: And that is why you’re, everyone is feeling this intensity, around, whether it’s Black Lives Matter, whether it’s everything we’re going through with COVID-19, it’s like where am I, where do I belong? Neighborhoods and cities are changing so quickly and people are walking home and it’s a visceral feeling to feel like you’re out of place, you’re unwanted and you don’t have a home. And I would say that cities are changing faster than technology is changing, I would argue. What new iteration of iPhone do we need? I don’t need another new button, but I do wanna feel that when I go to the grocery store, if I walk down the street that I feel safe and I feel like I belong.
AD: And it’s your people.
MS: That’s right.
AD: I feel a lot of urban design has been done to sort of mitigate or damage control, groups of people that they feel are, I don’t know, a threat or problematic and that’s just, when you understand the psychological impact of that, it’s not conducive to thriving communities.
MS: Absolutely, it’s not.
AD: You kind of touched on it, we’re going there, you believe that we can help inform the future of cities by thinking about people first and that’s the, the thesis of what you’re talking about, this people centered design and it’s -
MS: Absolutely.
AD: The program then is to do this ethnography, to understand the communities, to reflect the people and then design buildings and objects around that. As opposed to buying land, engineering, figuring out how to get the most return on your investment in terms of the real estate square footage and in many ways you know, just try and capitalize on the people -
MS: Absolutely yeah.
AD: It’s not a two-way relationship there, it’s egocentric and it’s not community centered.
MS: No, it is not and I would even go further and say that we have over index on masculant-built societies that don’t take into consideration anyone else. And for me the term ‘masculine’ does not necessarily just mean male versus female, it’s the fact that when it comes to individuals tapping into different sides of who they are, unfortunately we have been forced to think in a certain manner, just like every individual, I believe can have a masculine and feminine side.
What we’ve done is pushed aside in effect, that we have no other side to who we are. A feminine side doesn’t necessarily mean, hey, I’m soft and flowery. A man can be soft and flowery, just like a woman can be strong. What I am saying is that with the way that we built cities is that we built them in such a cold way that we have no other aspects to look at it. We’re not looking at it in a multidimensional way. We’re only looking at it through the eyes of building, we have a permit, you have all these regulations.
You have square footage and that cost per square footage and then I would add that yeah, there are certain aspects of having only white men in control of building this has caused a real problem. And we need to change that problem by introducing different people into the power structure. Not just into the organization itself, you know, diversity, inclusion, a lot of times the only ones introduce people into the entry level and people get excited that oh yeah, we have lots of diverse people and interesting people in our office. But they don’t have power. The change that needs to happen right now is that we have to change the power dynamic and in order for our cities to survive, we need more voices. We need lots of different voices and I would say we need to actually over index on those voices in a very (laughs), in a very clear and precise manner, in order for us to go to the next level.
AD: I am right there with you and I think that’s a pronounced conviction and intention of this podcast, but also my personal philosophy. I’m really interested in this idea of masculine and feminine. I know that we all have both energies and I think that our, just to paint a really broad brushstroke picture, our cities were sort of built around the hunter part and not the gatherer part -
MS: That’s right.
AD: Of us and it’s a little bit more about control and domination of both organizing chaos and nature and not about nurture -
MS: That’s right.
AD: And that’s the feminine aspects that you’re talking about, that need to creep into our urban planning and I totally believe, I was just talking to a sustainability expert and we were aligning on the fact that this new era that we’re in, the Anthropocene, needs to be feminist for our species to survive.
MS: Absolutely, yes and that is a big part of the type of work that we love to do. It’s a big part of the intentions, even in the organization where I make sure that we do have strong women leadership at Openbox, matter of fact all the leadership at the firm is local women, just kind of worked out that way. There was a lot of intention around it, but it’s also something that I know it’s very important for the organization.
It’s also important, even for the start of the magazine, of Deem, to have our chief editor, Alice who you will hopefully speak to as well, to have a really strong voice, to make sure that there’s a balance. And so we have to be intentional. We have to over index because we’ve over indexed on the other side and it’s -
AD: It’s grossly out of balance.
MS: It’s grossly out of balance, grossly out of balance.
AD: As I was doing research on you and reading into some of the work that Openbox has done and reading Deem Journal and one of the things that you do so well is communicate. And it says right there on your bio that you have a focus on making big ideas tangible for all people and I found that to be true in doing the research.
Reading through some of the case studies and projects you’ve done, it was easy for me to understand really complex ideas based on how you spelled it all out. You know, some of it was data visualization, a lot of it was qualitative, there were narrative arcs, it was really a work of beauty (laughs) and I’m really impressed by that.
MS: Thank you.
AD: I would love to understand a little bit about how you do that? (Laughs) It’s not magic, I know,
MS: One thing that I would say that’s pretty interesting with the people, because it starts with the team, it starts with the people and our way of being. One is organizations that are going to make it to the next level after COVID and everything that’s changing, are those that were built with everyone on the team having a say and a voice and being a part of a larger organization. I’ve always said that Openbox and everything I do, it’s not about me, it’s not about my ego.
This is not the Marquise story. I need everyone to win. It’s the collective success of every individual that makes us all better. And so it starts with that because that means that everyone can call each other out. So the spirit of critique is so important. Everything that we do is done with hey, yes and critique of how can we continue to make this better and working with each other and not taking it personal.
And so that’s the first aspect. The other aspect is being really good at listening. I always say, are you listening or are you waiting to be heard? And a lot of times both passive and active communication is built around individuals egos, so that people really don’t listen anymore. Most people are just waiting to be heard, when they’re not speaking.
And with the work that we do, when we are engaging with community, when we’re are doing the work, we make sure that we are truly listening over and over again. And those are just some of the simple insights to what we do and I would say Deem Journal is the same thing. It’s the spirit of Nu and Alice and the partnership that we have. It’s very much an equal partnership across the three of us.
We’re always making sure that each one of us is heard and listening, regardless of how the origin of the magazine started. To me a good idea isn’t powerful until you give it away. And I have no need to try to protect or control anything because the only way that it’s going to turn to magic is by having other people critique it, question it and grow it. So those are a couple of points of how we’ve been able to do that type of work and simplify complicated ideas.
AD: That speaks again to that sort of feminine energy of nurturing, when you think about a mother’s job is to keep her child safe and fed and provide stimuli and input and education so they can navigate the world. But then it’s also to be hands off and let that personality develop into its own person and find themselves. And it sounds like that’s what you are in the habit of doing, both with the projects at Openbox, with the films at Opendox and with the, the Journal is prime the soil, fertilize it, make sure all the seeds are tended to and let it grow and then it’s gonna grow into its own thing.
MS: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
AD: I have a question that I’m bothered by in the world - as I’m listening to you and I see the intention and attention you give to understanding how systems work, and I know that there are broken systems and also systems that were designed in really faulty and malicious ways, that have given way now to a series of crises. Obviously we’re in a global pandemic, we’re in an economic crisis, climate crisis, social crisis and also crisis of confidence in all of the systems that have been lying, oppressing and creating inequity. I know you’ve been thinking about leveraging these systems and redesigning them for equity because that’s, I mean I’m, I don’t wanna project onto you, but that’s how my brain works -
MS: Yeah.
AD: (Laughs) I’m assuming that you have I’m so frustrated with like our civic and legislative strategies and why don’t they include more and better design thinking along this framework? And how do we make a case for that so that it’s not just political will that our future is beholden to?
MS: I would say some of the work that we’ve done up to this point, definitely represents that opportunity and that way forward in understanding how to redesign the system. And that’s the first step, is recognizing that the system is broken and understanding that it needs to be fixed. The work that we were doing in South Africa and my time down there, and listening to their openness around being very brave and having these conversations around race, around economics, about who owns what.
And it was very much in your face and if it was new for you, it’s like it could be overwhelming but I feel like here in the States we just continue to tiptoe around because we can see, ‘that things look okay,’ but there’s the undercurrent of something that’s greater, that’s going to really destroy us all. And we have to understand that you cannot, you cannot allow one portion of your society to fail and not believe that it’s going to cause us all to fail.
So you cannot design a system where blacks did not have access to education, access to healthcare, access to food and not believe that it’s actually going to affect everyone. If you look at really poverty levels, what it means to be poor in the black community, it’s very different than what it means to be in the white community. In the black community it’s not always about education, or failure of education, it’s failure of access to power and the ability to actually employ oneself to do and to make decisions because we’ve always been under control. We can’t actually have access and mobilize and get things done. Within white communities where I’m from, it’s very different when it comes to what it means to be poor. Unfortunately both groups are being affected. When I go to Ohio and I go to the Midwest, a lot of my friends who are white are suffering, suffering. And sometimes suffering worse than black communities, but no one is telling that story.
And unfortunately there is a percentage of society that continues to ignore the larger problem and they continue to allow one group to represent the fears of a country. And (laughs) the problems of a country when a lot of these things are so manufactured that they believe that it’s going to benefit them even more and it’s not. And so for me, it’s about recognizing that there’s a problem. Understanding how we need to un-design those problems before we can actually start to redesign and continue to design better systems for everyone. But until we recognize the first step, we’ll never be able to do anything else.
AD: Well, I totally agree with you and I’ve been thinking about this too and I think you’re always gonna have that percentage who is invested in denial, avoidance, ignorance and resistance because they think it’s gonna benefit them more, or fear, they’re just blinded by a sort of unfounded fear. But then there’s an enormous percentage of the population that just needs to see a better way.
They’re not necessarily invested in resisting the idea, they’re probably benefiting from the current system and all the privileged ways that they can benefit and maybe they haven’t paid attention, but those are the people, like sand, they can be washed with the tide to the better system and undermine the structural integrity of the faulty system in the process.
MS: That’s right, that’s right, and that’s why storytelling is so important.
AD: Yes, yes!
MS: Right? And we as designers, we have a moral responsibility to make sure that the integrity of our stories are real. The same way that we need to step up when it comes to the building materials that we’re using, when we’re building neighborhoods, when we’re building homes, are we building homes to last? Are we building things that can get them through a whole generation?
Or are we just building things that are going to go into a landfill? I really push designers to step up and be more responsible and not just hide behind our fancy CAD design or pushing pixels. Just stop, let’s step forward as leaders. We can actually make such a difference by holding our ground and saying this is what we refuse to design anymore. These are the things, the plans that we’re not going to approve anymore and we’re gonna make sure that the integrity of our field is held and we’re not gonna let any political or social or monetary thing get in the way because ultimately everything that we do tells a story.
And storytelling is so important. And when I don’t see myself in the stories, then I don’t see myself at all.
AD: I’m just letting that sink in because that, it’s really powerful and there’s an art historian that says, ‘objects don’t lie’ -
MS: That’s right.
AD: And I believe in that and I think about the kind of artefacts that we’re creating, these disposable artefacts that don’t represent the people who live here. It doesn’t build a thriving tomorrow; it’s a system ready for collapse.
MS: That’s right.
AD: With all that in mind there is, so that’s kind of the macro, I really do wanna zoom way in on the micro, which is you personally. Keeping in mind that in order to achieve some of the things that we’ve been talking about, everyone will need to undergo personal change. How do you personally work with yourself as you move through change? I mean psychologically there are all kinds of little resistance to it, it’s scary and even if you’re ideologically on board with change, it can still be daunting.
MS: Yeah, but it’s a practice, right? For me, I practice every single day, living the type of change that I really wanna see, at a very micro level. And that begins with asking myself one question every day, is what have I done today that really matters at a very simple level and to me what matters is even it’s walking down the street and giving eye contact to a homeless person, to see, to let them know that yeah, like I see who you are. Whether you give them money or not, just simple gestures -
AD: Acknowledge their humanity.
MS: Yeah, picking something off the ground, it’s not me trying to save the world or saying look at me, I’m Mr Goody Two Shoe Guy, it’s me intentionally putting myself in a place where I’m feeling a bit more vulnerable, but showing the caring through the vulnerability, by touching and connecting with my environment. This opportunity with the unfortunate of COVID-19 has forced us all to slow down, be more reflective.
I’ve had to make a lot of different pivots over the last three months; I’ve had to slow down. I’m usually travelling over 100,000 miles a year and I’ve been grounded for the last three months. So who am I and what am I, how am I going to reinvent myself? What do I need to purge? That’s another practice that I do as much as possible. What do I need to get rid of? Whether it’s things in my closet, whether there’s old ideas, people in my life, things, we have so much. One thing that’s really important that you can’t see something come into your life if there’s no room for it. Right?
AD: Right.
MS: And so you’re like, why isn’t something, why isn’t this happening? Why hasn’t this changed and been manifested? Well, you haven’t made space for it because you have too much clutter in your life and it could be clutter in your head, it could be clutter in your closet, it could be clutter in your inbox. Whatever that is, and so at a micro level I practice these small moments of de-cluttering, making sure that I’m staying close to what it means to feel vulnerable, connecting with people, making sure that I don’t get to a place of success, which we all are striving for. But I never wanna be so successful that I can’t have just a regular conversation. My test for that is, you probably get this being in the Midwest, if your car breaks down, say in between Toledo and Detroit, or wherever you may be and you need someone to come pick you up and they hitch your car to their towing truck and now you’ve got to sit next to some person that you don’t know and you may have to drive with them for an hour.
Can you hold a conversation? Can you actually engage? Are you that curious? And I always that as a metaphor for me making sure that my Midwestern ways, my ability to talk to all types of people who really just wanna have a nice house and a boat and go up on Lake Carey (laughs) to hang out, that that’s okay. Right? Not everything needs to scale and we push everyone to scale everything, all the time.
Go big or go home and I’m, again, always managing that in my own life, to make sure that I can continue to hear people, that I can listen and I’m not trying to wait for them to hear me. So that’s the micro level of how do I do it on a day-to-day basis.
AD: I love that because I feel like you just shared with us, not only your personal, you know, proactive way of working through change, but it was such concrete information that we can all (laughs) use for ourselves, so thank you so much. You talked this whole interview about holding space and I agree with you that that’s really important. I wanna make sure to leave space in this interview for anything that I might not have asked, anything that you wanna express, a question you wanna pose to our listeners. Is there anything on your mind that you’d like to share?
MS: The only question that I would say, I said earlier, what have you done today that really matters? And are we, as a society, willing to go deeper? And if you’re not, then challenge yourself. Social challenges that we’re facing today, isn’t a hashtag, this is not a hashtag moment. This is your neighbor; George Floyd was someone’s neighbor. He was someone that sat next to you at a basketball game or at lunch time in high school.
And I wanna make sure that we are all reaching out to each other because I don’t care who is being hurt, I don’t care the color of their skin, I don’t care their gender or sexual orientation, everyone absolutely matters. And what’s going on in regards to Black Lives Matter is because there’s been a portion of society that has been left behind.
And I know for some people you may not totally understand what that means, but again, I go back to say that what have you done today that really matters?
AD: I do wanna mention that I think people are afraid of the discomfort because they’re not focusing on the benefit that comes on the other side of discomfort. Like you have to go through it to get to the good stuff, but it is better. And I think sometimes people think the discomfort is just gonna lead to more discomfort. And that’s not the way to look at it. It’s, it’s like falling in love. It’s awkward and exciting and exhilarating and vulnerable but -
MS: We have to practice it. I mean that’s the challenge with this country, is that we haven’t practiced, and be honest with you, most of this country is socially out of shape.
AD: Yes!
MS: That’s the bottom line. They could not run a half a mile of social engagement at all. (Laughter)
AD: True.
MS: And that is the problem. So the pain is real and we’re in a marathon, this is a marathon. COVID-19 and everything that we’re going through right now, it is not a sprint to the finish line of 40 yards, it is not, it’s a marathon and it’s going to hurt. And if you are out of shape, socially and physically, you have not put yourself, and you’ve delayed this for so long, it’s gonna hurt. And it is not my job to always make everyone feel comfortable -
AD: Right.
MS: With the discomfort, it’s not my job.
AD: And it’s exhausting.
MS: Yes, absolutely.
AD: I appreciate everything that you’ve shared and I want, I got a sense of what your hopes are for how this country, how we can manifest some positive change and I’d like to know personally, in your personal life, your career pursuits, the thriving of your own self and humanity, what do you want more of for you, for Marquise?
MS: I would say for me is just this continued pursuit to be myself and to feel freedom with that. You know, to be able to walk down the street and just be me, which is why I love living in New York City, it does give me some sense of breath in being able to do that, which is very different than when I’m in the Midwest. And I’d love to be able to come home and be in Ohio and feel that sense of freedom and love, no matter who it is. And move past some of the ways that we’ve forced people to live.
And I would say that that’s what everyone is looking for. All just want to breathe and that’s me, I just wanna breathe.
AD: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate your time and your attention and the work that you’re doing in the world and I’m excited to share your story with our listeners.
MS: I really, really appreciate that, it’s definitely been an honor and looking forward to just being connected and connecting with your audience in any way. I mean people can reach out if they have questions or want to connect, I’m always open.
AD: Thank you for that. Hey, thank you for listening! Go to our show notes to images of Marquise, his work and all of his endeavors like OpenBox, OpenDocs and Deem Journal. It’s worth noting at OpenBox there’s a link to a deep and actionable resource list, compiled by Carlisa to support the Black Lives Matter Movement. To go to the notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to Cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. Subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you would please do us a favor and rate and review, it really does help us out. We also love it when you reach out to us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, you can find us at Clever Podcast and you can find me at Amy Devers. Clever is produced by 2VDE Media with editing by Rich Stroffolino, and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is proudly distributed by Design Milk.
Photo by Guarionex Rodriguez, Jr.
Courtesy of Deem Journal
Courtesy of Deem Journal
Courtesy of Deem Journal
Photo by Guarionex Rodriguez, Jr.
Courtesy of Deem Journal
Please check out more about Deem journal and other projects Marquise mentioned in the episode:
Deem - a biannual print journal and online platform focused on design as social practice.
Openbox - creating better urban futures, together.
Opendox - exploring and documenting the world around us through film.
Resources for Accountability and Actions for Black Lives - compiled by Carlisa
Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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