Ep. 117: Creative Director Giulio Cappellini
Legendary art director Giulio Cappellini first fell in love with cars, then studied architecture, and took the family furniture business into the stratosphere with his bold curatorial vision and knack for spotting international talent. His true gifts may lie in his instinctual approach to risk taking, a dedication to longevity over market trends, and his truly familial approach to building relationships. With passion and curiosity for miles, his gaze is eternally optimistically pointed toward the future.
Amy Devers: Hello! This episode is brought to you as part of WantedDesign Manhattan Online, a Conversation Series presented with Design Milk and Clever. Each day from May 11-22, 2020, will feature design dialogues including new episodes of Clever, and engaging live conversations with very special guests. To view the schedule and register for events, head to wanteddesignnyc.com/online. That’s wanteddesignnyc.com/online
Giulio Cappellini: The thing that I understood working with Gio Ponti, it was really you have to follow all the projects like babies, from the first idea to the final concept, to the final project.
AD: And today I have the pleasure of bringing you this talk with the Legendary Giulio Cappellini. Trained as an architect, he’s most renown for being the visionary art director of international contemporary design house, Cappellini. Cappellini was started as a wood furniture & casegoods manufacturing company by his father in 1946, and when Giulio made his move into the family business around 1979 - he did so with an eye for fresh, avant garde design and a vision for a global brand. Fast-forward 40 years, he’s carved a serious reputation as a design talent divining rod, having discovered and launched the careers of a slew of notables like Jasper Morrison, Tom Dixon, Marc Newson and many others, while also defining eras of contemporary design with his bold curatorial perspective, and instinct for eternal statements. He’s passionate, curious, and optimistically focused on the long view… here’s Giulio.
GC: I’m Giulio Cappellini and I live in Milano and I’m an architect, designer and art director. My main job is to work as an art director in Cappellini company, that was in the past a family company. And now I’m taking care of the art direction and also I like to take care of design schools and to write books or articles for different magazines about design and also the art direction of some few other companies in bathroom accessories and lighting.
AD: That is a full life Giulio, can we go all the way back to the beginning [laughter]? I know you were born in ’54 in Milan. I always like to get a sense of how you got to be the adult you are by going through the formative years. Will you tell me about your childhood and what kinds of things captured your attention when you were a little boy?
GC: Yes, because you know, when I was just a little boy, okay, we had already the family business that was very, very small, family company with only 10-12 workers doing furniture, not design furniture, just furniture. But when I was really very, very young, I start to smell this kind of atmosphere. And I was always very excited by legal or by the construction and so, so creativity, it was for me very, very important, you know, to work with colors, to draw and so on. That was really my first, the most important things for me.
In those though I like very much to build small models of maybe houses or small architectural projects and that’s it. My other passion was cars and I’m still very passionate about cars and also my son is very, very passionate about cars. And so really it was just my passion. But really, it was for me very, very important. In fact, you know, also speaking about cars, for me it was maybe more important the shape, the beauty of the car more than the engine, you know?
That’s why I was in love with the cars, beautiful cars of the 50s, cars of the 60s and so on. Growing, I was more and more interested in, I start to look and to read books about the big masters of design and of architecture. This is also when I was 13/14 years old.
AD: When you were 13/14 years old -
GC: I started to read books, I was really very, very excited by contemporary design and contemporary architecture because for sure, I had the maximum respect for what was old or antique but I was definitely more and more attracted by what was new. And later on I was also very attracted by contemporary art, but this happened when I was 18/20 or so, so really I was a great fan and still a great fan of pop art and so on. I was really very attracted from the artistic side of life.
AD: So, can you tell me, do you have siblings? What was the family dynamic like and were you being sort of groomed to go into the family business or did you always want to?
GC: You know, I was studying architecture at the Politecnico di Milano and I was very lucky because during my university I had the possibility to work for one year at the Gio Ponti studio. And as you know, Gio Ponti is one of the most important artists, architect, designers that we had in Italy. At the time Gio Ponti was still alive and we were just a small group of young students, two from Italy, one from Switzerland, one from Germany, one from Japan.
So every afternoon we are working with Mr. Gio Ponti and he was showing to us all the projects that he made in the past and also gave to us some things on which to work. And for me it was an incredible school. But my idea doing the architecture at the Politecnico di Milano, it was just to be an architect. You know at that time, the university, we had really, it was just an odd period, we had a lot of strikes and so on.
So I started just to help at the family business, but really just to earn a few money and that’s it. But my idea, my concept is really, it was really to be an architect or a designer, but not to take care of the family business. But you know, at that time I was very, very young and one evening I was drunk and I told to my father and my mother, so I decided to go out with the family business.
And I was again very lucky because my father he looked at me and he told me, okay, if you take your risk, go ahead. And so I started to enter in the family business.
AD: I’m very curious because this was a very pivotal moment in your life.
GC: Sure, yeah.
AD: Why do you think when you were drunk you said this to your father because you clearly had been thinking about it and maybe it took getting drunk for it to come out.
GC: Yeah [laughs] you know, I’m joking just a little bit about this. But you know, frankly speaking, is that you know, walking into the family business, I was already passionate about design. In those days at that time the Cappellini brand was not a design brand. I was thinking that really we can grow and we can -
AD: You were scheming.
GC: We can try to do, yeah -
AD: You had a plan.
GC: Really, yeah, because my idea again, it was the main concept of the beginning of my job at the Cappellini company. It was the [true king?] at the time, you know, the Italian design was really famous, very famous in the world because we are at the beginning of the ‘80s, no? And for sure this is a fantastic phenomena that starts in the ‘50s with on one side, at the time a small group of designers, like Gio Ponti, like Achille Castiglioni, like Vico Magistretti, Ettore Sottsass and so. These people, they strongly believe in design.
And on the other side a small group of entrepreneurs like Mr. Busnelli, Mr. Cassina, and Mr. Gandini from Flos who really believed in design like a new form of business. And so this small group of people, they create this fantastic, incredible phenomena. But you know, I was thinking, when I start to work into the family business, okay, I was telling to myself, okay, Italian design is really very important. On one side Italian designers, on the other side Italian entrepreneurs.
That I was thinking, that okay, something is happening in the world. I cannot think that we can find good, interesting designers only here in Italy. And so I started to travel in Europe, in France, in England, and after in North America, after in Japan and so I start to meet young designers at the time, totally unknown designers like Jasper Morrison, Tom Dixon, Marc Newson and many, many others. And they were at the first project, so they started their life in our business with me.
The idea, no? To create a new concept of design. To maintain, to defend the quality of the Italian production on one side but on the other side really to try to work on, what I can see in international design. Anyway, looking at the DNA of the different designers because for sure, for me, it’s very, very important to understand that in a certain moment I’m working with a person that is coming from Japan or from England or from North America or from France and so on.
So I started with this idea, with this new project and okay, step-by-step I met really very, very interesting people. I always say that for sure, in my life, I had really the possibility, and I still have the possibility really to meet incredible people. And they can be maybe very well-known old designers or they can be very, very young students or young designers at the beginning of their career.
You know, for me, really these meetings with people are absolutely very, very important. The sort of cultural contamination with people coming from different parts of the world and the sort of friendships that you can create with the designers, it’s really something fantastic. Because as I always say, you cannot do a good project if there is not a good relationship between the designer, myself and the team of the R&D at Cappellini or in another company, and that’s it.
AD: Yeah, so I want to ask you about all of these relationships and I also want to understand, when you had set your sights on taking over the family business and you had a sort of progressive, curatorial scheme brewing in your head, did you see the family business as, I know you had an idea where you wanted to take it. Did you feel any resistance or was it fairly fluid and did you already have relationships with designers that you wanted to work with or did that come as you were taking the reins at Cappellini?
GC: At the beginning, okay, on one side my father was, gave me really a lot of freedom to work, but on the other side you know, again, at the time Cappellini was a very, very small company and the Cappellini was selling only in a few areas, you see this in north of Italy. So when I started to explore, I remember that at the beginning you know, my father and my mother they were saying, no, but why do you have to sell to Germany, to France, you’re crazy.
So I remember that I didn’t eat for 10 days [laughter], when they gave to me the possibility, you know, to do what I like to do. You know, when I want something, I really want I’m an Aries and really I’m quite strong [laughs] on this point of view.
AD: You said you were Aries? Oh, I can see this.
GC: And you know I have to say that starting from the beginning it was really a fantastic period because okay, many of the designers say was looking to them, but after France and those designers and so and so, so I can say that really all the designers of the time, they had the contact with Cappellini, for sure, with some of them we arrived to make products. And so with some of them we only made prototypes and not products, but how to say, it was really, in the 80s and in the 90s a fantastic period.
Because I can say that it was incredible, in these, at that time, small company in North of Milano, to have these people, young people coming from all over the world. And at the same time, you know, the company growth, this means from 10 workers we arrive to be 250. So the company grows a lot and we start to explore worldwide. But really, how to say, something happened because I think it has to happen.
To me, it wasn’t really part of a scheme that I really made, you know, because I’m really very instinctive in my choices. And really to say that everything happened, the reason may be on my passion for my job and based on the passion of all the people that I had the possibility to meet at that time and so on. But it was not just a precise scheme to say okay, now Cappellini has 10 workers, I want to arrive to 200, now Cappellini is selling only in Italy, I want to arrive to sell worldwide and so on. No, something happened step-by-step in those 15-20 years.
AD: I understand what you’re saying. Instead of being really premeditated, what you’re saying is you were responding to, very intuitively, very instinctually to the climate of the world.
GC: Definitely.
AD: And very agilely. I mean I think the agility and the, well, and maybe you have a very distinct point of view and I guess maybe the Aries nature means you are very confident in following through on that distinct point of view, would you say?
GC: Yeah, you know, I have to say that for me to be passionate about my job, to me it’s really the most important thing. And also today, that for sure, I’m older, we are no more in the 80s or in the 90s but anyway, when there is a new project, not only just a new project about a product, but a project of communication, a project for a show and so on.
For me the time is like something new, it’s like an examination. It’s like a new baby you know? Really, because the thing that I understood working with Gio Ponti, it was really you have to follow all the projects like babies, from the first idea to the final concept, to the final project. And so really, for me, I can say that really okay, unfortunately this year we don’t have the design week and the Salone del Mobile but normally, you know, okay, we work a lot to do new products and so on.
But starting from the end of December, starting from the beginning of January until April, for me there is no Saturdays, Sundays, the work, I still work now maybe 14-15 hours per day because really, you know, we have to try always do better on what we made in the past and that’s it.
AD: You’ve mentioned relationships being a critical part -
GC: Yeah.
AD: Of the way you work and also you just said following the projects through like babies, which makes me get the impression that you and the designer work together like co-parents in many ways.
GC: Yeah, yes.
AD: Yeah, can you describe the way that you form these relationships or the way that you understand when they’re going to work?
GC: Yes, first of all, the relationship with each person is completely different because the approach to design, for example, the approach of Jasper Morrison to design is different from the approach of Nendo, the approach of Nendo is different from the approach of the Bouroullec brothers and so on.
I think that first of all is respect and second is really to establish a strong relationship because you know, in the respect of the DNA of the designer, so the designer has to understand what one company, what the company can do or cannot do. And really we as a company, we have to understand what the designer can give to the company. So I will say that I like to work on a global concept, on a global project, no?
And my role as an art director of the company, it’s really to create this sort of fil rouge that connect the different spirits of the different designers. Because you know, when you look at the Cappellini catalogue, you can see really, very, very different approach to design. Morrison that it is very minimal, Alessandro Mendini that is with a lot of decoration and so on.
It might be someone that is more organic and so on. So I think that really to create what they call these sorts of global projects is really very, very important. And anyway, the relationship with the designers is, for me, something that is the most important thing. Again, if there is not the maximum respect and there is not a good relationship, you cannot arrive to do a good product.
Because you know, sometimes it takes a lot of time from the first idea of the designer to arrive to the final product. And sometimes you have to change many different things. So the thing that we have to work years or months together and if there is not this sort of feeling, it becomes really very, very difficult to arrive to the final product.
And the thing that again, this is very important, and another thing is that, you know, I like to work with many different designers. Most of them are now historical; the relationship with Cappellini is maybe 20-30 years old -
AD: Yes.
GC: But you know, each designer working with Cappellini, they know what I’m doing with the other designers. And for sure, with some designers, like Nendo or Jasper Morrison, we do a new project every year. With some others maybe it takes two/three/four years to make a new project and so on. But again, really, I think that for me the most important thing that all the people, all the designers that be working, or they work for Cappellini, they have to feel, to be part of a family. And again, so really again, it’s the problem of relationship.
AD: I think the family metaphor is actually perfect because I’m thinking about the Cappellini catalogue and you’re right, they’re all very different. They’re very distinct, individual personalities, each one of those projects are babies, but they all share a family resemblance, right?
GC: Yes.
AD: There’s something in the DNA that comes from within Cappellini and I think that’s what makes it work.
GC: Yeah because I think that, you know, we can speak about innovation, in many different ways, no? Because innovation can be in terms of shapes, of course I always say that really maybe the most beautiful shapes have already been done in design in the 50s or in the 60s. But innovation can be just news of new technology, new materials, new production systems and so really, again, the relationship not only with me in the company, but with all my team and the designer is really, a sort of friendship is really very, very important.
Sometimes you see the same designers is doing maybe for a company, a project that fits perfectly in the catalogue and with some other companies that maybe products that they fit 50 or 70% in a catalogue. But this is not the problem of the designer; it’s the problem of the company.
Because maybe at that time the company is not able to establish the right relationship with the designer. It takes time, it takes time, absolutely, but again, when you establish these relationships, at the end it’s for life, as I can say.
AD: So you have a very instinctual way of working, but you’ve also taken some great risks over the course of -
GC: Absolutely, always and still.
AD: Describe for me your risk taking personality and what compels you to take action?
GC: From my point of view is that, you know, to take risks, it means that when I strongly believe in one person or in one project, I want to do and I push to do better. This means I don’t want to be just a marketing victim. Because sometimes okay, I have the maximum respect for the marketing people [laughs] but you know, sometimes too much marketing kills creativity.
You have to defend your ideas and again, sometimes when your work on a project that is really very, very innovative, it takes time to enter in the market. Anyway, as I always say, we are not producing fresh pasta, this means if it’s not successful in one month you have to throw it away. Sometimes, with some new projects, might also be new, unknown designers, it takes years to enter into the market.
But again, if I strongly believe I try to defend this project as I can. And this is again to take risks, it to take risks, maybe again, to make prototypes, prototypes and maybe if the product doesn’t fit well in the Cappellini collection to say, okay, no, we stop and maybe we keep this product and we can sell this product or maybe we can rethink this product next year and so on.
And you know, I think that you can really do this if you strongly believe in what you are doing. If you don’t strongly believe in what you are doing, you say okay, this can be good, it can be good; we have to check the reaction of the market and so. But no, I think that really, again, if you want to create something new, you have always, always, always to take a risk and anyway, the first generation of Italian entrepreneurs, again in the 50s, they took a lot of risks working with the innovative ideas of those young designers.
And anyway, they build a fantastic phenomena that is the Italian designer, the ‘made in Italy,’ and that’s it.
AD: Yes [laughs], yes and you’ve, in terms of steering Cappellini, you’ve made some pretty astute decisions to reach a larger world market, you’ve grown, you’ve scaled the company and then you’ve also joined the Poltrona Frau Group -
GC: Yeah.
AD: Which is now owned by Haworth. And that opens up a lot of markets for you.
GC: Yes, yes because you know, I think that really the big problem of most of the Italian design companies is that these companies, they are very well-known worldwide. They’re published by all the design magazines, they have products in permanent collections of design or art museums and so on. But at the moment they are too small, just to be in the global market.
Because again today, the market is the world. And so when we decide to enter into the Poltrona Frau Group, it was first of all to work with a company with a different concept. Because I have the maximum respect of Poltrona Frau, but Poltrona Frau is more classic, Cassina is more modern and Cappellini is more contemporary. So not to create the supermarket of design and not to overlap the collection because this is very, very important.
Also, if we are part of the same group, each company has to be its own identity, its own DNA. And you know, and second, really, entering in at the beginning, okay, we were supported by a financial group, by [**] and after we became public at the stock exchange and after we enter in the big Haworth family, but I have to say that before, to enter in this family, Haworth was since a few years mostly for Cappellini more than for Poltrona Frau, or for Cassina.
Haworth was the first customers, worldwide customers for Cappellini because they select some of the products of the Cappellini collection that they can fit in contract business for lounges, hotels, restaurants and so on. So the relationship was already strong. And for sure now that you know the contract market it’s really very, very important. In the new, what they call the ‘new countries’ for design, that can be Middle East or Far East, and also North America, is more easy to sell a design product, a Cappellini product, maybe for public spaces mostly than for residential spaces.
And so this, to be with Haworth has helped a lot, a lot, a lot and so today I have to say that really 70% of the market of Cappellini is with contract, with the lounges, with the hotels and so on. And also to say that, you know, I’m alone, and the idea to enter in the Poltrona Frau Group, it was, I didn’t want to push my kids to do my job. I always told them in the past also, you know, if you want to follow me, okay, otherwise you are free to do whatever you want.
In fact, you know, my daughter’s, one, she’s a lawyer and the other one she’s is the fashion business, in marketing and she’s in Paris. I also have a son, Giovanni, that again, he was very passionate about cars and after he turned to design, and at the moment because he’s young, he’s 25 years old, he’s doing his own experience at the Piero Lissoni Studio because I say, okay, in the future, if you want to work with me, you are welcome but for the moment you have to work with your own legs, no?
I’ve really to think to the future. For sure, for me you know, again, Cappellini is my baby, Cappellini is my life, but I have to think that really I kill Cappellini if I don’t think to the future of Cappellini without me. So we have really to try to create a good team and to say that the nice thing, for example in marketing and research, in communication at Cappellini I have people that are working with me since 20-30 years. So you know they get, it’s a sort of virus this Cappellini [laughter] and this is very important because they understand me and you know, I understand it’s very, very difficult, you know, to work with me.
Because I’m asking the maximum to myself and I ask the maximum also to the people that are working with me. Sometimes I arrive in the evening and I’m so tired and they say okay, these things are good like this, but if I’m not 100% convinced, the day after at 7:00 in the morning, you know [laughs] I say no, we have to change again. For sure now, being part of a big group, I have also to follow some rules, no?
For example, in Haworth, they are used to decide what to show in the fair, in an exhibition, six months, eight months before, but for them it was crazy that Giulio the night before the opening of the Salone del Mobile, decide to change the color of a cabinet or of a couch [laughter] or table. That they told [death of me?] you know, for a month I decide that it was good to present the sofa in blue, but the night before the Salone del Mobile if I think it is better to present in red; we have to turn from blue to red [laughter] in this thing.
But again, it’s a problem of respect, no? Really to say that I’m super happy to work with the Haworth family, they’re super nice people. It’s a very, very good team. The relationship with all the Haworth team is really very, very good and also being part of Haworth group, I have the possibility to work a lot with Patricia Urquiola, Patricia, she’s a good friend, we know each other since the beginning of Patricia’s career.
Also now we are doing some projects together because you know, we take, when we do exhibitions, between Cappellini and Haworth, we do together now. We are developing for Cappellini, there’s very interesting new projects, and so on. Really, I have to say that I’m super happy because I have the possibility to work with a very good team.
AD: You talked about succession and you talked about something that I think is really interesting which is how you still work intuitively and instinctively, but with a larger team. Which means your agility has to be cooperative and maybe less impulsive. I think there’s a lot that we can learn from what you’ve been through and I’d really like for you to share that with us. But before we get there, will you tell me a little bit how you’ve adapted to be able to still follow your gut, you seem to feel the world with a very powerful instinct. And then you have to communicate that out to a large team and there’s a lot of friction there. How have you adapted to that process?
GC: It’s a problem of respect of the other people and of passion, you know? And I think that, you know, as I told you, is the thing that, as I told you, I like to work on global projects. When they ask me which is the project that you like more, I say the Cappellini project and to do a large project of a company. So you have really, you know, you have really to speak, you have really to build this project with other people.
Because I think that, you know, if I’m sure and I defend what I’m doing, I’ve not to be afraid of the judgment of other people, why not? And that’s why, you know, I always like also to have a lot of new young people, not only Italian, also people coming from other parts of the world in my team because at the moment, you know, it’s true, I’m getting old. And so for me to really have -
AD: You don’t seem like you’re getting old Giulio, you’ve got [laughs] energy.
GC:Yeah, but you know, for me, that’s why I like very much you know, to have contact with the young students, with young designers because I really think that really today, there is a fantastic new generation that can give to us new ideas. So really, I think that again, for sure it’s more complicated today. Because in the past, okay, I get up in the morning, I decide to make white, I make white and that’s it. Now, I get up in the morning and maybe I have to, if I want to do white, I have to speak and discuss with 30 people why we want to do white instead of black, you know?
But, I think that if we want to grow, if we want to think to the future, we have definitely to work in this way. I don’t believe in the role of the star, you know, and all the other people, they’ve only to say ‘yes.’ The thing that I always say to my team, I am more and more happy when they criticize something that I am doing instead if they tell me ‘bravo.’
AD: Ah, discourse, because then you have a back and forth, then you can really understand why, as a group, why you’re making that decision, I totally agree with you.
GC: Yes, you know, they play with me because they always say, if it is absolutely not through what I am telling to you, because they always tell me, if we say that you are wrong, you say, “It’s impossible!’ [Laughter] Yes, and at the moment to them, I always say to them, “No, no, it’s impossible, you are wrong!” But after, because I think that [laughter] you know, I think that I’m not stupid, I really think of what they told me and after I, sometimes I go back and say, “You know, I have a fantastic idea,” and this, this, this and they play with me saying, it’s the idea we told to you a few hours ago [laughter].
They say okay, no, no, you know, this sort of really friendship because I’m, again, sometimes they say it’s not difficult to work, but it’s difficult to work with you [laughs] because again, if we have to work 12 hour per day and Saturday and Sunday we have to do and the fantastic thing is that if I have a problem, I can call one person of my team at 11:00 in the evening or on Sunday morning when he or she is with the family and they answer to me. And for me this is something absolutely fantastic. It’s a goal.
AD: Yes, you’ve created an enormous global family, all working toward a mutual goal. I think it’s time that we talk about some of the hardships that you’ve faced in life. You have this enormous family that is your work family and it’s built on respect and so when something doesn’t go right there, that’s personal.
GC: You know yes, because this happened because the year 2000 when I decided to enter into the Poltrona Frau Group, for sure we had just a company taking care; we are checking all the Cappellini things and so on. And unfortunately at that time, you know, we discovered that this man who worked, was working for 17 years for me and he was taking care of the administration. But for us it was like a part of the family. He was taking care not only of the business of Cappellini, but also of all the private finance of the Cappellini family.
And you know, the problem is that in his life, in two years he started to play at the casino, losing a lot, an enormous amount of money. And so he started to, with the, not alone, with a group of other people, not people working at the Cappellini company, but people out of the Cappellini company, that he was taking the money, but he was not paying taxes and so on.
So at the end we discovered this, for me it was really something absolutely crazy and at the time I decided to give everything that I had from mine, my house and everything, to the company because you don’t want that the company can go bankrupt and to have all the workers losing their job.
AD: Let me make sure I understand, a long-time friend, an employee started with a gambling problem essentially, started syphoning off money from both the Cappellini and the Cappellini family assets.
GC: Yes.
AD: Okay.
GC: Yes, because you know, he was only one, playing with the money of Cappellini because I wasn’t taking care of the administration because I was always on the products and I was traveling with customers and so on. So really, I think that I entered, but really the relationship of this man was very, very good and again, it was so good that really was taking care not only of the Cappellini company finance, but also the finance of the Cappellini family, you know?
And when my father died he gave to him everything what to do, in fact I think that he take away also money from my father’s. At the end this man really started to play to the casino and started to lose huge amounts of money. And you know, when you start to do this, I think you become really crazy and it was just taking away money until the day that we discovered this, with this company, with this auditor of the Poltrona Frau Group.
That it was one month already into the Cappellini Company. So it was really crazy. And this man disappeared. I used to say, to tell to myself, I hope to get back not the whole amount, but maybe 20-30% of the global amount. But this never happened and so.
AD: Obviously that’s a devastating thing to discover -
GC: Sure, sure.
AD: Not just because I jeopardizes your family assets and your business, which is your baby. But it’s personally devastating as well and it sounds like this -
GC: Yes.
AD: Just started digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole and there may have been not just financial jeopardy there but -
GC: But you know, for me it was really, yeah, in one month I lost 12 kilo and first of all, it was that many people they start to say, ah, you know Cappellini has problems because you don’t win money doing design, Cappellini is a visionary and so this is absolutely not true. Because if Cappellini wasn’t making money, this man cannot take away money, that’s it.
So the Cappellini was doing very well at that time and second, really, at the time anyway, the first reaction was okay, I kill myself. After I have to say that looking to my family, to my wife and to my kids, I’m looking to some friends because I have to tell you that in this moment you can discover who are the real friends and who just follow you only until when you need them, you know, and that’s it.
Also, so it was a really very, very difficult period. But again, you know, I’m also always used to say okay, what is next, we have to look to the future and it’s true. When you say that, for me that moment is like this moment, like we are living today, with the virus -
AD: Yes.
GC: With all the problems, but to say that I’m really very positive. I have to say that really again, you know, at the moment we are living today is maybe the worst moment of contemporary history. But we have to find the energy to look to the future, for sure, to a future that will be different from the past. But again, I think the most important thing is to be ready, to adapt. Maybe not to change our life, but to adapt our lives to this new situation.
And again, what I made 15 years ago, I’d like to say for sure, I lose a lot of money and at the time, so you can live with $1,000 and you can live also with $100, on the other side, really. I understood who were my real friends and who wasn’t my real friends. So I found the power to go ahead and that’s it. For me, really, the respect from many people, it was really the power that they gave me, the real power to go ahead and that’s it.
AD: Well, you are -
GC: You know, it’s life.
AD: It is life, but your attitude and your optimism, I think, are part and parcel of what you’re famous for, which is having an ability to spot long sellers versus best sellers -
GC: Yes.
AD: You have a very long view, I think, in terms of your life, your business and even these rollercoaster, these deep plummets on the rollercoaster of life.
GC: Sure.
AD: You still look to the next peak, which I think is one of your super powers.
GC: Fortunately you know, with what we are doing, we don’t need to use too many words to explain what we are doing because if we spend more than 50 words to explain a project on which we are working, it’s because we are not 100% convinced of what we are doing. I really think that we have the possibility to show to the people what we think, which is our concept, our idea, just doing things.
And I think that this is again, the most important thing and really, I always say that there is something new to invent, sometimes and this is the thing that I always tell to the students of today, young designers, because many times people they say everything has been done in design and so on. I say no, that is absolutely not true, there are really millions of new things to do.
Because also, to do design is not only to design a table and a chair and a sofa, but today you can design really thousands of beautiful objects. And those, I think that the role of people working in creativity and in design, it’s not only to make useful and beautiful products, but also to make people dreaming and smiling. I think this is again something that is important. Coming back to what I was saying about -
AD: To connect to their emotions.
GC: Yeah, yeah, otherwise without emotion is it’s nothing.
AD: It’s dead, it’s soulless.
GC: Yeah, sure and also back to what you were saying, sure, I like to work on long sellers. I always said that design creates best sellers, good design creates long sellers because you know, I think there is a sort of guarantee for the end consumer to see a product, maybe in a different color with a different texture and so on, in the market after 20-30 years, because people, they say wow, if this product is still in the market, it’s really good.
And I think that in these particular historical moments we really need some heritage. We want to be secure. We have a need for these kinds of objects that they become part of our life. So I think that the idea, the concept of objects really timeless, is absolutely very important.
AD: Mostly generational, like families, you wouldn’t want to be in a family with no parents and grandparents [laughs].
GC: Sure, nice, absolutely true. And also I think that after this period, because it’s really a terrible period and we have to say that, okay, on one side people that are suffering or are dying, but on the other side, a lot of people they lost their job and really, we have already and we will have many, many problems in the future. But I think that, this is my idea, maybe I’m completely wrong, that maybe people, they will buy less products, but more, not take away, not products use and throw away, but really products that became part of their life.
And so I think that there will be just a sort of change in the idea, in the concept of buying objects, by the final customers, this is my idea. Maybe I’m wrong.
AD: No, but I hear you and I think, I feel it too. There’s going to be an adjustment from the consumer mentality towards fast, cheap and disposable towards an investment in things that can be with them, that they can form attachments to and that represent not only this moment in time but the past and possibly the future, if these objects have a longevity to them, then they can, then we do too, then we can connect to our own longevity.
GC: Sorry, yes, that is absolutely true and also we have to think that for sure, people, they will travel less and they will go less at the restaurants, they will have less vacations and they will buy less fashion because they will have less social moments. So people will stay at home more and they will understand how important it is to live in a nice house and so on.
I think this moment, all the people are really, also maybe if again, they have no budget, no money, but they are living a lot at home, and in the end they’re understanding, they need to change something in their home, how to adapt their house, also to the idea that they can work at home and so on. Also from this point of view there will be a lot for design to do in the next future.
It’s not due to the virus that is design is dead; I don’t believe this, really.
AD: Thank you for sharing your insight with us. I think one of the important things about this format that we’re talking here is that people get to hear your story in your own voice. It allows them to connect to you personally and to sort of feel a deeper connection to the objects through knowing you and hearing your passion. Would you also share with our listeners a little about just Giulio, you and your private life? You mentioned you have three children and a wife, so there’s this family there. We’re having this phone call, you’re in Switzerland, yeah, tell me, paint a picture for me of Giulio, what do you eat for breakfast, things like that?
GC: For sure, okay now, my kids are one, she’s 29, 25 and 22, so for sure their own life, because sometimes you know, I like to have all of them at home, but it’s absolutely not true and this is again, normally we are in Milano, but Margherita, she’s my third, she lives in Paris, and Costanza, she lives with her boyfriend, so really, but for me family is absolutely very, very important. It’s the most important thing. Again, you know, thinking to the past, to the horrible period of my life, I think that without my family, I don’t know what I can do, really.
I like very normal things and this is the same for my family and for my friends too. Okay, for my business, I have to be sometimes social; I’m not just one person that is every evening to a party, no, absolutely. Really, I like the very simple things. I like to share my life with my family, to have a pizza together, and also to share my time with my best friends. There are really few people, not only involving design, Piero is a very good friend of mine, like Rodolfo Dordoni because we studied together.
They are good friends and they are also architects and designers, but I have also other friends that are not involved in design business. For example, you know, I’m a very good friend of Piero Gandini, he’s the ex-owner of Flos Company, but with Piero, when we used to meet each other, we never speak about business, about design, but we speak about other things.
It can be art, it can be travel and so on. But really, coming back to myself, no, sometimes people they think that you know, I’m not enough open to the people, but maybe it’s because I like to have my own privacy. Really, to live my private life in a very easy way because again, you know, normally, about this period I travel a lot because I travel more or less 100 days in the year, worldwide and so it’s quite a lot.
So many times I don’t spend my weekends at home because I use the weekends for the long trips, to Asia or North America and so on. And I like anyway, very much to travel. But on the other side, you know, when at home really I like to do very, very simple things. And for me, again, the relationship, the human relationship is really very, very important.
If I have to really maybe choose, to have an easy pizza with some friends or to go to something super social, if I can, I choose the easy pizza [laughter] with my friends and that’s it. And you know, and so this is, this is my life.
AD: Well, I love that and I sincerely hope there are many easy pizzas in the near future. Would you do me a favor, would you look around the room that you’re in right now and share with me, just a simple non-Cappellini object that you enjoy or that is part of your everyday.
GC: Yes, yes, because you know, really, I have to say that this is also my Milano house. I don’t have, it’s not just a 100% Cappellini house. I have some old pieces from the 60s and I have some unique pieces that may be some designer, some friends, they made for me. And also I like very much contemporary art and have a great passion for contemporary art.
And so if I look here, for example, okay, there is an old small table from, by Saarinen for Knoll, the white one with some oranges on top it. Also here I like to mix different objects, contemporary objects with maybe all the Chinese potteries and so, and there is another corner of this room, there is the Sacco from Zanotta and there is an old Rietveld armchair. There is a few Jasper Morrison chairs from Cappellini.
When you ask me, how is your house, I would say it’s chaos like my life [laughs] you know. Because again, you know, I think that your home has to reflect your whole personality, you know? And you know, I think that also if I like very much contemporary art, but for me the most important thing is that really, a house has to be alive, not be just like a museum.
And also have books everywhere because I love books. I’m not 100% technological and so I still like a lot of paper -
AD: Yes!
GC: And I prefer to read a book on, a real book in paper than on a computer. And so really I have bookshelf and books everywhere also on the floor. And I have really thousands and thousands and thousands of books, in my studio in my house, in the house on the lake, everywhere.
AD: I love it. You’ve been interviewed a lot, a lot, a lot over the years. Is there anything you’d like to say that no one has asked?
GC: You know, normally, because I have to say that in the past, when they were doing, they were interviewing me, maybe they were asking only about design. Now more and more people are curious to know which car I like, if I prefer pasta or risotto [laughs] and so on. No, maybe I want to speak about my dreams.
AD: Yes.
GC: If I wasn’t just say an architect or an art director, what I want to do, but you know, for sure I think that one of my dreams, it may be I can do in the future, is to do books. Books only with images because I think that a beautiful image, everyone can understand, no? Because if you, something is written, for sure, we have many, many different languages in the world, no? And maybe if it’s written in Italian, American people, they cannot understand and if it’s written in Indian, you know, Italian people, they cannot understand.
But I think that really a beautiful image really, everyone can understand, you know. Sort of world without words, but only with images. And so this is one of my dreams. And second, I like very much movies, also it’s not really when I go to see a movie, I look more to the interiors than [laughs] to the history of the movie, no?
AD: Oh, I would love for you to do production design, oh my god, you just blew my mind, that would be amazing. We need to make this happen universe; we need to make this happen [laughter].
GC: I remember that a few years ago, you know, I was working, I made just a project for Walt Disney and so I spent a few days in the Walt Disney headquarters. And for me it was really an incredible experience because in these buildings Mr. Disney was always walking in the corridors. And you know, I spent one day looking to the old drawings in this room with white gloves, taking all the old drawings on the Fantasia, no?
The beautiful movie of Walt Disney and for me it was like a dream. I was really crazy.
AD: Wow.
GC: And it was an incredible experience. It was, I always think that, you know, you can really find, I got a lot of inspiration because I think that really, you know, you can get inspiration from anything in the world. This is again, very, very important. So I always say that I have a long list to do in my present life, but I’ve also a long list of things that I would like to do in my next life [laughter] -
AD: Yes!
GC: So we’ll see [laughter]. Again, we have always, having to look to the future and let’s see.
AD: You have too much energy for one lifetime Giulio.
GC: Okay, we will think to the next one. [Laughter]
AD: Yes!
GC: Good, good.
AD: Well, is there something in the hopper right now, in the pipeline that you’d like to let our listeners know to look out for? A current project?
GC: Yeah, you know, I have to say, you know, really, the projects on which I’m working is, because again, normally okay, when we think to a product, we think to a new table, a new chair, a new sofa and so on, now the thing that we’re working, a young team of students and designers coming from different parts of Europe, also from Eastern Europe because in Eastern Europe there is also a new generation of very, very interesting young designers.
And I’m working on what they call a landscape. It can be domestic or can be just a landscape for an office or for a lounge and so for sure, again, I like to work on global projects. So on this landscape, for sure, you have a piece of furniture, but my idea is to try to understand how people will live in the future. And also to think, to the new generation, the new generation that are living in the Silicon Valley, the new, young Chinese generation and so on.
So I’m trying to work on this project that I think is quite interesting because it’s not only to say, okay, we do another chair, we do another table. There are already thousands of beautiful tables and chairs and sofas in the market. So but really, to try to give, and this is not a concept of lifestyle, but to try to work on this, landscape for the future. And I think this is really very important.
And again, it’s very important to work on this project playing with different people coming from different parts of the world and with a different attitude to design.
AD: Yes, that diversity and that inclusiveness is something that’s always been a part of you and your perspective. Giulio, I just want to thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve shared with us.
GC: It has been really a great pleasure. So thank you, really thanks really a lot, a lot, a lot. I hope that in the next future we have the possibility to meet in real life, no, because as I always say that for sure in the next future, we will be back to shake our hands and this is again, you know, this is the human relationship. And I think that we are discovering how much human relationship is important, you know?
AD: Yes.
GC: Now we are living in a beautiful way, but when we will be back to the real way, we will rediscover for sure, all these fantastic relationships. Good.
AD: Yes, wonderful and to see the sparkle in your eye and the smile on your face in person, there’s nothing like it [laughter]. So thank you so much for sharing your heart and soul with us.
GC: Thanks a lot.
AD: Thank you for listening! To see images from Giulio and Cappellini and read the show notes, click the link in the details of this episode on your podcast app, or go to cleverpodcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. Subscribe to Clever on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would please do us a favor and rate and review - it really does help a lot!
This episode is presented as part of WantedDesign Manhattan Online Conversation Series, presented by Clever and Design Milk. Visit wanteddesignnyc.com/online to view the schedule and register for live talks.
What is your earliest memory?
I remember that since I was a child I was attracted to architecture and I liked playing with building blocks and making simple drawings of houses and their interiors.
How do you feel about democratic design?
I think it is essential that design is accessible to everyone. After all, design not only means designing a table or chair but also designing commonly used objects such as a car, a computer or a bottle for water.Good design improves the quality of life and it must be for everyone.
What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?
Working with Gio’ Ponti taught me that a project must be followed in all its development phases, from the first idea to the final realization with passion and professionalism.
How do you record your ideas?
I write all my ideas in a notebook that I always have with me. Often the ideas remain stuck for months, but then I take them back.
What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?
All materials are valid if we know them well .... I am currently very interested in the creative use of recycled and biodegradable materials that have reached an excellent quality level.
What book is on your nightstand?
I like to read books on design and architecture and detective novels .... at the moment I'm reading a book on the main projects of Ettore Sotsass, one of the great protagonists of contemporary design and architecture.
Why is authenticity in design important?
We must defend authentic design, a symbol of research, project culture and guarantee for the final consumer.
Favorite restaurant in your city?
My favorite restaurant in Milan is called Piccola Cucina. A family restaurant, not trendy and with few tables. Excellent cuisine and it is like being at home.
What might we find on your desk right now?
On my desk you can now find a computer, many books and many sheets, pens and colored pencils. I always like to draw and write, even when I'm talking on the phone.
Who do you look up to and why?
I always like to observe the great protagonists of contemporary history. Right now I'm admiring Renzo Piano, the great architect who designed the new bridge in Genoa which collapsed two years ago.
What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?
My favorite project will be the next one I will do! Among those already made, the book on Cappellini which tells beautiful encounters with design characters from all over the world.
Photo Credit: Massimiliano Polles
What are the last five songs you listened to?
I like contemporary opera and music. Certainly the concert that most struck me in this period is the one of Andrea Bocelli who sang some beautiful songs in the Duomo of Milan and in its deserted square for the Covid 19 virus. An exciting show that has gone live around the world on YouTube. I'm also a big fan of Madonna. I like her latest songs. She always manages to renew and reinvent herself.
Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?
I have recently start using Instagram where you can find me on my personal account and also on @cappelliniofficial.
Clever is produced by 2VDE Media. Thanks to Rich Stroffolino for editing this episode.
Music in this episode courtesy of El Ten Eleven—hear more on Bandcamp.
Shoutout to Jenny Rask for designing the Clever logo.
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