Ep. 176: Ashleigh Axios on Breaking Barriers with Strategic Design

Sep 20

Ashleigh Axios spent her youth entertaining herself with crafts, immersed in her grandma’s world, finding kinship with the neighbors. After college, she gained a unique bouquet of experience that all added up to a position in the Obama White House as creative director. Now, as an owner of Coforma, she is a fierce advocate for design's ability to create positive social change.

Amy Devers: Hi everyone, I’m Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I’m talking to Ashleigh Axios. She’s an international speaker, strategic creative, and an advocate for design's ability to break barriers and create positive social change. She does all this as the Chief Experience Officer and an owner of Coforma, a digital consultancy and design firm that crafts creative solutions, and builds technology products, that help bring about equity and improve lives across a wide range of communities. Prior to her role at Coforma, Ashleigh was at Automattic, a technology company with a mission to democratize publishing and commerce - where she formed and led the in-house creative agency for marketing, communications, and brand identities. And before that, she served as the creative director and a digital strategist for the Obama White House, bridging two presidential terms in the Office of Digital Strategy. She is also a former Chair of the Board for AIGA, the professional association for graphic design and a past president of AIGA Washington D.C., where she formed DotGov Design, an initiative connecting and empowering government designers. Right now, she’s using her skills and superpowers to design systemic pathways to help those suffering with long-covid… it’s both fascinating and meaningful work, here’s Ashleigh…

Ashleigh Axios: I’m Ashleigh Axios, I live and work in Washington DC and I do work in the government sector, I’m all about using design for positive social and cultural change in the ways that I can.

Amy: Well, we need that, so thank you! Before we get into all of that I like to go back to the formative years. Can you tell me about your childhood?

Ashleigh: I was born in Northern Virginia. I have an older brother and it wasn’t too long before my parents got divorced and we moved up, my mom, my brother and I, to New Jersey to move in with my grandmother. It was a nice kind of combination suddenly being immersed in my grandmother’s world. Her and my grandfather had kind of made their way and earned money and had developed this fine sense of taste, but we were still very much finding our own way as a family. And my mom was kind of going back to school and figuring out next steps for her career and getting resituated.

So I found myself having a lot of time alone, but surrounded by both fine things and emerging spaces and really went into my creative headspace a whole lot between dancing and singing and just making art. I entertained myself a good portion of the time and just found the world really fascinating and interesting. I used to actually walk around and sell the little things that I made to the neighbors just to kind of make friends and connections. But my grandmas’ neighbors were men and women her own age and they were really kind (laughs) to buy my handmade earrings (laughter). I’m sure they did not need any of that stuff. It was a neat little creative world. I was a latchkey kid too, part of that time too, so head back from school and into my grandma’s house, but I’d also spend time with her next door neighbor, Mrs Skelton, talking about her life and journey. I think she was in her 70s or something like that at the time. So had a lot more flexibility kind of meandering and wondering than I think a lot of kids did in that decade.

Amy: I love that you had a few generations to interface with. It sounds like selling your handmade earrings and hanging out with Mrs Skelton was actually kind of an extended family and a lovely access to another generation.

Ashleigh: It just felt so natural to me at the time. But I think I’ve realized more over time what an honor that was to be able to have that kind of exposure and context and sense of history. I think it made me maybe a little emo because (laughs) I got to hear people’s regrets and missing family and stuff like that at an early time, but also empathy builds so much, I don’t know, I think it builds maybe faster when you have those layers of exposures.

Amy: I bet you’re right. In the same way that travel helps you not be ethnocentric and helps you kind of see the world through the different perspectives, having access to the perspective of even just an older generation that’s experiencing a different kind of health situation, different economic situation and also has a lot more hindsight, would maybe even give you a wider lens on what this lived experience is.

Ashleigh: Absolutely. Me and Mrs Skelton, we’d talk about termites in her house, we were talking about real things she was dealing with (laughter), so I learned a lot, things I definitely didn’t need to know at the time, but it’s helpful, that’s life (laughter).

Amy: Yeah! Okay, so latchkey kid, maybe a little emo, making art, singing/dancing, totally comfortable hanging with the older people. What did this translate like into your teenage years?

Ashleigh: So I had it a little rougher. We moved around quite a bit as my mom was really trying to get her own bearing and grappling with being a single mother and really wanting to stand on her own feet in all these different ways. So I had a difficult time moving between different environments, not feeling as grounded with friend groups. But I think fortunately it helped me lean ever further into art, as almost an art therapy vantage point. And I was lucky enough, I don’t think I even realized until recently how fantastic my extended family was.

But I had a chance to job shadow one of my mom’s cousins who worked in the ad industry at UniWorld Group, a black advertising agency and get exposure to the ad world. I knew I didn’t want to sell things, I wasn’t drawn to the ad world, but this creativity and this idea that I could maybe use creativity for good really stuck with me. And I was a little precious about my craft already, spending time drawing and making things and that was starting to be recognized in little ways throughout high school.

But I got some nudges from my mom to try this vocational program and against the advice of career counselors at my high school who said that nobody with good grades would go to a vocational program and all sorts of tropes, I…

Amy: Oh man! I’ve heard so many terrible stories about guidance counselors steering kids the wrong way (laughs).

Ashleigh: Yeah. Luckily my mom was pretty persistent because she had met this wonderful woman, Judy Sobko, who ran, in New Jersey, the Monmouth County Vocational school programs design group. She had left working at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City for some time, a really terrible situation from all that she shared there, to just venture out and wanted to teach kids everything that she learned and how design could be. And I didn’t know that I liked design and ended up seeing it through going to this program as this huge gateway in a way that I could continue to finetune my craft and I didn’t know how these pieces would fit together, but use design for good.

And I was encouraged by her to look at different art schools and she said RISD would be perfect for me. She was just such a mentor and a support when I really needed it. Somebody who truly cared about her students and was over the churn of the workplace and just about making an impact herself. I could see it in her and it just encouraged me to really push a little bit further and apply myself to apply to RISD. And I applied to a few other places as well.

Amy: I just like to really celebrate and shout out these people that have such a major impact on people’s lives. I love that your mom kind of encouraged you to take this vocational program, despite the guidance counselor. And I also can see how all of these experiences are stacking up and nobody know what they mean when you’re that age. Nobody really knows how they’re going to start to influence your professional life until you find your way. But it doesn’t make them any less important, right? They need to be there; they need to be the raw material that you end up shaping your life with. So Judy Sobko, yay for her. And you did apply to RISD and you did get in. You chose graphic design to get your BFA, can you talk about the college years and, I don’t know, what they were for you? I know they can sometimes kind of blow your world right open or sometimes they can be anti-climactic, what was your experience?

Ashleigh: I think a mixed bag. One, blown away at what to me felt like (laughs), opulence and decadence. The place was just so fancy (laughter). I was like, what have I got myself into? I thought art schools are just supposed to be like messy places for creative craft and it’s a major institution. I think I saw some of those aspects right away at RISD and had to shake that off to a degree and then I found, just people who are so creative and inspirational and unique and was really inspired by that. And then I went through, I think a stage of being a little bit frustrated because I was trying to push creativity to share important messages. And some of the context, the work that I was doing, people didn’t care as much about the messages. It was kind of a different time for design.

And so I definitely had my moments of frustration and being given a project and making it about female genital mutilation (laughs) or apartheid South Africa. And folks were like, what are you doing? You’re making my degree project about the social justice initiatives and how to actually pull those facts and this history out for this broad audience, how could you make this digestible content, that they could get a little bit of at a time.

They’re like, this isn’t marketing, this isn’t, you know, political design. I’m not quite sure what you’re doing. This was a stamp project or a book project (laughs). But I kept pushing and I took that ownership myself that I was paying for this. I was kind of terrified with the amount that I was paying and taking out loans for. And the fact that my mom was contributing and really needed it to pay off, but needed it to be right for me.

So I just kept kind of pushing in those direction and challenging myself on writing and communicating about the things that I cared about on top of the task as it was assigned. And those layers, I think, really benefited me over time, even though I was… I felt a little lonely at times in that work. And also a little lonely in just that the demographics were still kind of changing. And so I didn’t always see a ton of folks like myself around me, but that made me stronger, I think.

Amy: I like to think so too. For context, this was about what time, when were you at RISD?

Ashleigh: I graduated in 2008, so during a nice recession (laughter).

Amy: Okay! Yeah, you were ahead of your time, I think, in terms of activism and social justice and the overlap of those two with design being really mainstream. I think they’ve always worked together, but there definitely hasn’t been necessarily a path of economic viability that includes all of that. So you could tell what was meaningful and purposeful to you and you needed to follow that in order to make this education be something that you could work with for the rest of your life. But the messaging around you was also like, here’s how you use creativity to make a living and it wasn’t those things.

Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, and just kind of like pulling together these pieces that felt really separate. I would find my community or a respite by going to the office with multicultural affairs and just talking about poetry and the black diaspora and being able to go, like a big sigh of relief. And then go back into… this is dramatic phrasing right, but almost back into the fight a little bit with my work and the studio and having those conversations. I think in a way that prepared me for some of… not that it should be this way, but for some of the working world in a way that schools should, to some degree, it should be more of a conversation (laughs).

But I still got a ton out of it and I’m so refreshed to see how many students now, just from the conversations I’m having, are passionate about some of the same things and how much the conversations and education… I feel like everybody has now read Teaching to Transgress (laughter). And starting to really like shift the dynamics much more significantly. So that also brings me a lot of hope so many years later.

Amy: I think that’s true, but I also think that you may have been instrumental. You being the type of person you were at the time that you were there, you may have laid some groundwork.

Ashleigh: Thank you, I talked with a grad student who is at RISD now about this, but there’s a certain amount of assimilation that’s necessary and a certain amount of challenge. I don’t know that I’ve always gotten that balance right. And so I think about that dynamic pretty consistently. But it’s not all on any one person. But if I did any little part to help move it forward, I would be grateful and thankful to have done so.

Amy: Well, let’s move into your professional career because that’s maybe not the only time you went to some place that was opulent and fancy and got down to brass tacks and started to do the messy work of strategizing. I know that you spend four years spanning two terms as the creative director and a digital strategist for the Obama White House and I want to hear all about that. But can you kind of lay the groundwork for what it was like out of school and how you got to a place where working in the Obama White House was an opportunity for you?

Ashleigh: Yeah, of course, because it feels like such a jump (laughs). How did that happen?

Amy: Yeah (laughter).

Ashleigh: So yeah, when I left RISD I made the choice to move to Washington DC and a big part of that decision was to be closer to where there were so many non-profits and cause-based organizations that were doing meaningful social work. And it took me a little bit to even crack into that. I also knew that there were skills I had to continue building and so I was kind of desperate when I first left school, just feeling that recession and feeling that the clock was ticking until loan payments and all that stuff that I’m sure folks can relate to, at least in the United States.

I was kind of hustling pretty hard and was having a hard time in the recession finding a job and actually took a paid internship and that turned into a job. And was building more skills in digital because it wasn’t as much a part of the RISD curriculum at the time. Then intentionally built some skills with client management and relationship, working in a small design studio. And wanted to go into some more interactive messaging and found an opportunity to work at a company that did museum interactive pieces for educational institution pieces.

And worked on part of the permanent exhibits for the Henry Ford Museum and the Museum of Tolerance. And really got to grab attention of folks who were passing by and think about touch screens and interactivity to a different degree. And so it probably felt like I was drifting all over the place, but I was building these skills over time and hoping at the time to find the right kind of non-profit or something like that.

I didn’t have one issue that I was passionate about, there were so many issues I was passionate about. I was trying to figure out what that would look like, but just hoping for the right non-profit job. And I finally got a job at the National Wildlife Federation and I also started serving on the board of directors for AIGA Washington DC, the Professional Association for Design at DC Chapter and I ended up meeting the creative director at the time, Cody Eckstar for the Obama White House at a ‘happy hour’ and just chatting with him.

And I learned that what they were doing and the team dynamic, it sounded really fascinating. I feel like I almost joke about this most of the time when I tell it, but he reached out later because they were looking for an art director and I actually worked for a couple of months trying to find them the right person. I believed it had to be somebody who had more than a few years out of school and it was tremendous and I was trying to recruit for them the best people I could think of for this spot.

And I also had some hesitation in my mind of what it would be like to work in government, as much as I respected the Obama White House and the administration, I wanted them to have the best and I was also like, how creative could you be, working in the White House or working in the federal government, I’m not quite sure. But through that process of ongoing conversations with Cody Eck and looking through Cody, as his nickname is, talking through the role and everything that they needed.

And being like, what you really need is me, and this sounds more and more perfect every day (laughter). So I was like okay, you know what, maybe I should come in for an interview. And he was like, yeah, why don’t you do that? I’m like wait, was that the point the whole time (laughter) and I’m just kind of dense, quite possibly. But it was really natural. It was probably one of the easiest interviews I had, probably in part because of how many conversations we’d had until that point.

But with the entire Office of Digital Strategy team and so yeah, I started as an art director there and that first little bit was like, can I do this for a week? It’s a lot, I’ll just take it a small piece at a time and it built up over time.

Amy: When you say, ‘can I do this for a week’ and taking it a small piece at a time, was that you working with yourself to not be overwhelmed or is that you not having both feet in, not sure that you wanted to stay there?

Ashleigh: I think at first it was, being perfectly honest, a little bit of both. It was a change in quite a few different ways. I had some imposter syndrome about being there and I feel like it showed even in just how I dressed up at first. I was like how do you (laughs) work at the White House? There’s no manual for this. But then also it took me a little bit to figure out how my values really [were good?] online in my work moving forward. And when I first joined, the best looking stuff, as much as I wanted to do work that was meaningful and impactful, was also a driver. And I think part of that was instilled through my design education. And so I had this feeling sometimes, oh, this work could be better, I’m not as proud of some of the stuff that we put out. But some of the stuff we put out was making a huge impact, was making sure that people were getting healthcare and it was helping people immigrate to the US safely. Doing these incredible things and so I had to take… it took me a little bit of time to really find my footing and what really mattered most. That sometimes the visual aesthetics were going to suffer because in the time that you have to do the most impactful work, the balance was just a little bit different on a faster delivery or taking the time to craft out a more robust message collaboratively with the team. There are just tradeoffs that had to happen. I like to think our standards also improved over time, but it was an uphill battle on some of that. So that was part of it.

Amy: That’s the bigger framework of design right, is taking everything into account and then designing to optimize for the greater good. And sometimes, yeah, the tradeoffs, they come into that. But it also sounds like you as a young professional were kind of balancing what you had called earlier, you’d already gotten a little precious about your craft when you were a child. Plus the challenge of the right balance of assimilation and challenging.

Ashleigh: Yeah, absolutely.

Amy: It sounds like all of that was coming together in a total swirl of (laughs) activity.

Ashleigh: Yeah and also just, what’s the right amount of caffeine to sustain a day at the White House? (Laughs) I had so many questions, there were times I was like, I obviously need to do this farmer style, like eat more in the morning, this could be a comedy, but it was like, I’m going to go have chicken and waffles before work. That was not it! (Laughs) Just comedic but trying to figure out, how do you work sometimes 12 hour days in a high pressure environment while doing this work? What do I need to follow-up on? I do I keep myself there physically, mentally in a consistent manner. There were lots of pieces of it that just took some time to feel out. So it’s very layered.

Amy: Can I ask you a little bit more about that? What did you figure out for yourself? I know it’s going to be different for everyone, but in a really practical sense, did you go more paleo or what kind of calorie intake did you need to sustain yourself? I know for me carbs are a nightmare.

Ashleigh: For me, it’s all about being able to kind of snack because I wasn’t going to have necessarily the most consistent meal schedule. So that made things much better and just eating a little bit more frequently and keeping my energy… I could also just get so pulled into the project that a lot of time passed, so having it near made a ton of sense. And having consistent amount of coffee around, but cutting myself off (laughter)…And we even adopted, it’s like life imitating arts situation, but we’d be like, you know what, some of these meetings, it’s just two of us, three of us, could be a walk and talk, so we’d do loops around the executive office building, just to be able to move a little bit more and release some of that energy in a different way and not just have it build up in my shoulders, increasingly rising towards my ears (laughs).

Amy: Yes, okay, that’s really smart, that helps me understand and see the picture a little better, thank you for that. Can we also zoom out. You’re in the White House and you’re working on digital strategy, what are you seeing from that vantage point?

Ashleigh: Yeah, I mean such an interesting time, i started early 2012 and this is pre-US digital service, [pre-ATNF] pre-presidential innovation fellows. And we’re just on the cusp of this little start-up in the heart of the Obama White House as the Office of Digital Strategy to say things can happen differently. We can make the web accessible. We can promote transparency and openness. We’re on the first open source platform for the website. There was some little tests that had started to happen that we were able to really own and embrace and think about how do you scale this out?

How do you create forms? We’ve got these elements of design, could there be a design system? This is a time where the foundation for the US web design system started to be a conversation where conversation about connecting separate government designers across agencies and groups with various title and positions and hierarchies, to share resources and connect with one another. We started doing that through AIGA Washington DC, through DotGov Design initiative that a couple of us started.

This was just the beginnings of all of that to help paint a picture and I’m so impressed with how many people have come in and how much all of this has grown, in part because of failures, things like healthcare.gov, the debacle, for those who remember being the issue, to some degree necessary to create and have the beginnings of the formation of the US digital service. And other things Macon Phillips was the first director of the Office of Digital Strategy having conversations and helping lend his insight to making the presidential innovation fellows. It was for both kind of inspiration and a little bit of the lessons and the failures and the learnings, the real beginning of a lot of the foundation we’re seeing in the US federal government at least today. And I know that’s inspired a lot in Canada and has helped set a precedent in other nations as well.

Amy: That’s pretty exciting. I can remember back to that time, as being a real cusp because before that, the government wasn’t known for social media or for being very digitally accessible. The websites were almost impenetrable…The information was dense, it was organized in such a way that it didn’t feel like they really cared about who was trying to access the information. The web itself was still evolving and also the information dissemination had historically happened through other means, like the mail. And so you’re kind of there when everybody realizes, no, the future of information dissemination has to happen this way and we’ve got to lay the foundation for it right now.

Ashleigh: Yeah, we’re having active discussions on some of that, like you know, how to use social media for the White House and what the responsibilities are. What policies should look like for that. Some things that had even happened almost by accident or just kind of naturally in the past, how can we do them more intentionally? Okay yes, the State of the Union started as a means to kind of update congress in a written form and then through the advent of radio and then TV, this became more of a public facing update. But how can we use intentionally now the platforms, the tools that we have to engage people, to up the ante for what is being shared, but also to take the level of interaction with the American people on that mission and aim for the democracy a step further for greater participation and awareness instead of this one directional communication. So there are lots of active conversations about all of these aspects. Some of them very old and having really deep roots and some of them being very new and explaining to the chief of staff what Snapchat was (laughter) and how that could work and why content disappeared… some of it very fleeting at the same time.

Amy: Did you feel valued as a young person in part because of your digital savviness?

Ashleigh: In the Office of Digital Strategy we would joke sometimes that we’re like AV theater kids of the group. So there were a lot of younger folks across the Obama Administration, a lot of energy and drive, so we weren’t alone in that. But I think there was a degree of, okay, what are those creative dorky (laughs) kids going to do over from that corner? We’re all working on traditional comps policies and broader federal policies and we pop along and be like, you know, how can we help you? And coming up with creative ways to engage the astronauts when they’re dropping by. It’s such a creative place just because of the nature and the gravity, I mean that almost in a literal sense, that pull that an institution like that has for talent and top industry, that utilizing that to the highest degree possible was such an ambition of ours, that we’re constantly throwing out creative ideas and trying to be in people’s business (laughs).

Amy: And did you find in general a good natured gameness to go along with it or did you have a lot of resistance that you had to overcome?

Ashleigh: It shifted over time. I think there was a great appreciation, luckily there was a great appreciation because of the Obama campaign for the role of social media and design and clear communications and some new ways that had some, even translating into the federal government, although it felt like it needed to be much smaller, had some kind of respect and a little bit more of a gravitas and then it probably would have in any time. But we were still kind of the newer kids, the newer department. We were brand new. These other departments had been around for a long time, even if they had different leadership or different structures to them in that administration.

And so it took us through much of, honestly, both terms to get an equal seat at the table to traditional communications and for a long time we reported through some different kinds of teams, like our communications team at the White House. But we took whatever position we could get and were pretty humble about it. Because we also recognized, well, we wanted to have more access to be able to do more good. We also recognized that kind of perception, like we had once Susan Rice walking into a room to talk to the chief of staff, interrupting you for a moment. It’s like well that’s national security, so you know (laughter). Also just know my place, I can…

Amy: Yeah.

Ashleigh: I can sit and I can wait (laughs) and I can understand why it’ll be some deference for some of the other departments and work that’s happening. But yeah, there was a lot of respect and appreciation. And I think increasingly, as we were starting to help amplify the policy and get people’s interest in that work, and seeing us as a huge value add for getting the work done and for getting buy-in on the work, and not just in that marketing sense, but people’s true understanding of the ways in which the policies they were developing are actually helping them, which is what they wanted to. So it’s like, oh, okay, you’re here for what I’m doing too, we can work together, we can be partners in this work.

Amy: You said not just in the marketing sense, but it would seem intuitive to me that so much about the messaging and the communication is also measuring the impact and being able to share what’s working and what isn’t working in order to move needles.

Ashleigh: Yeah, there’s a degree of that and we had some thoughtful partners who were able to also do… they’re doing separate focus grouping on terms and really… I think that user research, qualitative research, especially in those early years was so new to the government. It was like, you can listen to the American people, but through open channels and forums, from putting these events together, from some traditional means, sitting down actually, interviewing, doing discovery, qualitative research.

It didn’t feel like it was our place as a team and so luckily we’re able to break down some of that by kind of meeting with other groups who were able to and had that leeway to do focus groups and at least some other listening sessions along the way. But it was very much still budding in the federal government at the time.

Amy: How would you say that whole chapter of your life shaped you personally? I mean it sounds very foundational to me. Was it sort of like getting a master’s degree (laughs) in terms of being educational and helping you really finetune and refine where and how you want to spend the rest of your career?

Ashleigh: Yeah, I think so, and it’s also this moment where a lot of things I had been working on separately just kind of for me, for the first time, clicked together really well. So while I had those struggles, it was finally like, oh, here’s… I hadn’t thought of politics or federal government, that’s not why I moved to DC, but it was like ah, it makes sense. I couldn’t choose an issue area, so the selection between non-profits was always a little weird for me and like, I am actually getting to work on so many of these issues that are important and they’re being elevated to this level because they are critically important. And so yeah, that was a hugely foundational, both a kind of seeing everything come together for the first time and also beginning to see where it could go a little bit more clearly, instead of that meandering path.

And it’s still step-by-step, figuring it out, but it feels a lot more clear to me now. I had to take that step out into space around a ton of people operating and I’m like, I’ve got it (laughs), I have grown sense of how I can contribute, how I can do it at scale and I’ve learned so much about working in the federal ecosystem that I’m absolutely still applying today with Coforma and using to help, I hope draw other people to this, just truly incredible, impactful, fulfilling space to work.

Amy: You mentioned Coforma. I think this is a good time to start talking about that. Coforma is the digital services agency which you co-founded and serve as chief experience officer. I know you had some work experience between the Obama White House and Coforma. I’d love to know a little bit about what led you to start this agency and then I’d also love the overview of what the agency is, the operation, what’s the mission, who are you serving and how does it all go down? I know that’s a big question, but it’s just your life, so walk me through it (laughter).

Ashleigh: Sure, sure. So just hyper briefly. When I left the White House and went to Automattic, which is a tech company [looks 0:38:45] behind wordpress.com and Word Press Foundation and a number of other platforms. And one of the things I loved about that, I had gone from being on site at the White House, these long hours, to suddenly working remote first in this global team and environment. And I loved thinking about that context. I loved being able to invest. I built up marketing the studio, the marketing communications team for Automattic. I spent some time there just figuring out how to build, as so many people were experts already, in how to build remote teams and enable people to have the space and the priorities outside of work in addition to their passions inside of work. And so that plus kind of everything that I learned in the Obama White House, Eduardo and I have brought to co-form, as you mentioned, our digital service firm.

Amy: That’s Eduardo Ortiz, your co-founder.

Ashleigh: Yeah, he’s our chief executive officer and we’re really, both came from the federal ecosystem. I mentioned US digital service earlier, Eduardo had worked there, with some overlap in the time that I was in the White House in the Office of Digital Strategy. And we both learned, I think, some similar lessons there and just the appreciation for what it’s like to be a public servant and the desire to support those who are doing that hard work from the inside, kind of leveraging agile and empowered positions, sometimes from the outside.

I was in an appointee role in the White House, so I knew I was going to be leaving during the administration. US Digital Service, Eduardo was able to work into the next term a little bit, but saw some of that work get blocked by the administration and priorities change. And was, I think, frustrated by some of the important work, especially on topics like immigration, that was just going to lose traction, despite some amazing beginnings and some ground work that they had started to lay.

And so this idea of building up our own firm where we could partner with the folks inside government, but also leverage connections and experience outside of government to sometimes keep things moving when it stopped having that progress inside, was really, really appealing to us. And we’re able to help our government kind of clients at this point, in places like office of personnel; management and Center for Medicaid/Medicare services and health and human services and veterans affairs. They navigate bureaucracy and help figure out how to get funding for some of the projects they want to do.

Because we’ve had to work on some of those same types of issues inside of government. So they know we kind of have their back (laughs) in a lot of that work and we get it, we emphasize really greatly and we’re patient. But we’re also building something up where we can be our own bosses and make a fulfilling, thoughtful work place and environment where people can thrive, not just in the projects and with the impact of the work. But in growing individually and working with some brilliant partners in the work.

So I like to think it’s the best of all of those worlds starting to come together and just kind of adventure to take the time to build it up and slowly be building our footing across these different issue and focus areas. We’re really passionate to continue to make an impact.

Amy: And it does sound like the best of many worlds in so many ways. You understand how the big machines work, so you can come there with your toolkit and speak with authority that you kind of know what the people who are embedded in the big machines are going through. But because you have the agility and the ability to kind of come in and also be external, you also have the perspective of being able to see from a different vantage point where the machine needs a little lubrication or needs a replacement part or needs to open up in certain ways and be modified.

I think it’s really interesting, you work across all these different areas, like healthcare, immigration, veteran services, voting and civic engagement and access to justice and equity. All very important things. And I want to talk about your creative process. One of the things that I think might be a great case study to kind of dig into your creative process is a program you developed called Health+. And Health+ is something that’s now being leveraged by the US Department of Health and Human Services to shape their long Covid solutions, which is super relevant, super important and super necessary. Can you walk me through the back story of developing what Health+ is and then how it’s being implemented for various solutions, including shaping the long Covid problem that we have?

Ashleigh: Yeah, absolutely. I’m sure others will be able to relate to this too, but occasionally you’ll have this ideal way of working and you get into contract negotiations and some of those details end up being written out of the contract. Part of our vision for Health+ was being able to lock the most ethical, thoughtful approach in to the way of working and having that be bought more as a preset. And so that’s part of the inspiration for setting something like this up as a program.

Amy: Oh, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.

Ashleigh: Really… it places one high impact health issue area in the center, in the focus at a time and we make sure that’s something that often is more of one of what people view as a term, like kind of wicked, contracted problems. It has a lot of social, political determinants of health that make it really hard to solve and so hasn’t gotten maybe the attention that it should have. Those are things that we’re more likely to put through the Health+ program.

But it’s really, the goal is to understand the lived experiences and needs of people affected by that issue area that’s in the center. And then to identify opportunities to accelerate solutions and those can be solutions from anything from policy, technical, support system, types of payment and care, based on what we’ve learned from these patients and the ecosystems around them, the ways that they’re failing, or succeeding in supporting them.

So this is, I think hugely important because until this point there hasn’t been a ton of this kind of qualitative, patient centered research within the government ecosystem. And we’ve been able to do quite a few cycles of Health+ looking at topics like Sickle Cell disease, which has a huge history of racism and all types of discrimination and a lack of funding in research from the government and broader health institutions and really dig into what the needs of the Sickle Cell disease community are.

Topics like Lyme disease, which folks tend to be more familiar with acute Lyme disease, which is treated and then resolves itself and there’s a lot of debate and sometimes hostility about this concept of persistent or chronic Lyme disease that many people are suffering with. And now kind of long Covid, which also shares some characteristics with Lyme disease and being this chronic or persistent health issue after somebody has experienced their acute Covid-19 diagnosis and in that experience in treatment.

We’re able to really focus on those patient experiences and do in-depth research and document the opportunities, issue areas, involving diverse sets of communities around those patients from clinicians, policymakers, the patient advocacy communities, non-profits, a whole ecosystem in the research, including developing some initial recommendations for solutions and beginning to even pilot those solutions. So we’re really excited to be applying this now to long Covid.

It’s obviously so pressing; it hasn’t been around that long. There’s a lack of research in general on this topic and it’s something that so many people are suffering with today. And so selfishly for our team, it gives us such hope and relief to be able to do our part, to help make an impact and hear, listen to these stories and amplify them so that we can see change. It’s really rewarding work to do.

Amy: Yeah, I don’t think that’s selfish at all (laughter).

Ashleigh: We find the stuff so rewarding because otherwise it’s easy to get bogged down in the problems that we have. So it’s refreshing to be able to be a part of a solution in a small way. But this one is especially exciting for us because we had a part to play in supporting the staff for the Covid-19 health equity taskforce last year, as they were developing a set of recommendations for President Biden, in response to his forming the taskforce with an executive order. So there were hundreds of recommendations that came out of that work and it’s been fortunate enough to see I think over 80% of those recommendations be taken up by the Biden Administration and taken for action, including support for state, local and tribal initiatives that were recommended.

But this Health+ long Covid work that we’re doing now actually in part, indirectly came from that work that we did last year and further investment that was made towards HHS, towards understanding the experiences of those with long Covid. So it feels like a double relief to us to have helped put together some set of recommendations and help facilitate with some brilliant taskforce members and leaders, discussions on the types of problems that Covid-19 was creating and exacerbating inequities across the United States.

And then to not just have it end with recommendations, but to be a part of follow-up work and making those experiences even more real and generating solutions.

Amy: Can we get practical, when you say… what is the follow-up work and what is making those solutions more real?

Ashleigh: Yeah, right now with Health+ long Covid, we’re in the process of synthesizing the research down and so we’ve got draft journey maps of the long Covid experience and a sense of the archetypes and really the struggles and opportunities that the community is facing. And we’re still writing out the robust report, but we’ll be engaging with many that we’ve spoken to throughout the research so far and validating those problem areas and then brainstorming the types of solutions that will make a difference.

And already through our research we’ve gotten, just people volunteering stuff that they know, payment, methods, clear connection between Covid diagnosis and identification of the risk of long Covid and awareness. But past cycles, just to give you even more concrete examples, since we don’t have that just yet…We’re mid-stream. For Lyme disease some of the solutions included folks came up with preventative wearables to prevent tick bites as well as marketing and communications materials to help people understand that having a tick bite is not just checking it once and getting one quick treatment, there are things they should be on the lookout for that might be a sign of chronic Lyme disease. As well as really in-depth policy changes to spaces like preventing the spread related to climate change as it’s increasing the tick-borne areas further north every single year.

And creating greater awareness in cities where ticks hadn’t been prominent before about their increased prominence. And to digital apps that would help those had Lyme disease, track their ailments and be better prepared to share those journal entries and that data with their physicians and healthcare providers to get faster treatment and make the case for new community treatments or to connect with others so that they could get around some of the challenges and the gaslighting that still, unfortunately, happen in the medical institutions where folks are navigating diagnosis and treatment.

Amy: That’s really powerful and it really helps me to have you draw out those concrete examples for me because it’s digital applications, it’s wearables, it’s messaging and information and it all is to combat disinformation and also can be used in understanding climate change and all of the various effects of climate change. And then also can affect policy. It’s very, very…

Ashleigh: So wide.

Amy: So wide and yet so… I can see why this is very meaningful to you and I’m glad that you’re able to sort of stay involved in the process through to have some follow-through and implementation because that tangibility is a real motivator.

Ashleigh: Absolutely and we know that there’s only so much that we can do as a company. So a good part of our responsibility throughout a process like this is engaging a diverse invested set of folks who directly have a stake in this for varied reasons. Connecting them, building empathy and connection across their groups and helping them see the areas where they have shared interest so that they can continue to invest in one another’s initiatives, follow each other’s work and that these have a longer life cycle than one of our programs could. So it can be a real launchpad to collaboration.

And with that we’re really thoughtful to not create forums that we can’t maintain and really go where people are and where this work is already a priority and then just help build those bridges and build a greater understanding of the needs.

Amy: I’m really glad you said that phrase, ‘building bridges,’ because that’s what my brain is showing me as we’re talking. It’s a lot of building bridges, but it’s a lot of deconstructing of barriers… it’s all happening. But what is your most utilized or most important tool or skill in the kit for doing all of that barrier deconstructing and bridge building?

Ashleigh: A lot of it comes down to as simple as it is just listening. I think not enough credence has been given to the lived experiences of communities and some of the communities we work with, sovereign tribal nations, the black Sickle Cell disease community, those with chronic illnesses and disabilities. Their lived experiences are not listened to enough and there are a lot of people who want to create solutions for them and of course the disability community has been saying, you know, ‘nothing about us without us’ for quite some time. But really putting that into practice in the work that we’re doing by first listening to and taking our lead from the communities that we intend to support. And often that means taking on clients who are part of those communities and just being as thoughtful about how we can do that from contract and relationship building to execution and closing and promoting as we can be. So it’s simple, but it’s also, once you start unravelling it, there’s so much more work to be done in figuring out how you can truly listen and kind of humble ones self and take another lead and shift… if you’re really listening, shift those power dynamics to, to be open and really receiving what is being given by another community.

Amy: I’m glad you said that. You said it’s simple, but I don’t actually think it’s simple. I think it is simple in that the idea of listening to one another should be a simple concept. But it’s actually requires a kind of adaptability because you have to be also ready to hear what they’re saying and not just continue with your action plan that you had in place before you heard what they were saying.

Ashleigh: Yeah.

Amy: I also think there’s, just personally speaking, there are times when I have not been heard or when I’ve been gaslit and when I have been actually heard, it’s incredibly healing.

Ashleigh: Yeah, it’s so true. We get a sense of that all the time and the research that we’re doing, it enables people to come together around these things, to really hear one another. It takes unlearning, so much of what we think we already know and I think that’s well said because it seems like a simple notion, but it is really lifelong work and application (laughs), yeah.

Amy: Do you use this listening in your personal life? Has it improved your own personal relationships? And then even deeper than that, do you listen to yourself as carefully as you listen to others?

Ashleigh: I have taken it to heart, I think for better or for worse, in my personal life, down to, I think I’ve started to get a bit of a more of a public platform. And so I make myself open and accessible, but I’m also a very analytical person and a very private person. And so sometimes those have conflicted. I’ve had Gen-Z folks be like, all right, I heard a talk you gave and I’ve got thoughts on it. And I’m like, okay, shoot! (Laughs) I want to hear it!

I’m like, some of this is helpful and some of this I don’t know if it’s helpful to me. There’s just so many layers to unpack on applying some of these practices personally. So I’ve actually learned where, for myself personally, I need to put up some walls. And there’s a lot of societal pressure right now to treat each voice the same and it’s a hard balance. I’m probably not even going to be able to clearly articulate this as well as I’d like to.

But I think it’s a fine balance of kind of doing the work, continuing after the work and not looking for necessarily that group validation, but also being a continual learner and listening to feedback and continuing to evolve because there’s so much learning and unlearning that’s necessary as part of this process. I’m definitely still getting a feel for it and I’ve overwhelmed myself by opening the floodgates (laughs) really wide in the past.

Amy: I can see how that would have been yeah. And then there is also the very real need to manage your energy and not be responsible for everybody else’s energy and also there’s only so much… some feedback is not very useful, but there’s also only so much you can take and incorporate and actually process without it just becoming too much noise.

Ashleigh: And there’s tons of trauma and stuff other folks are unpacking too, right? There’s so many layers to it. I do think that some of this best listening and really hearing work happens when there are teams and when there’s space for unpacking some of those traumas, some of the… we were talking about this, unpacking some of those secondary traumas that can arise from it. Making sure that there’s some outlets for that processing. That’s something I’m taking really seriously and trying to find for myself.

Also as somebody that has fallen prey to that idea of needing external validation, that should not be what it’s about, but it can easily become that in the world of so much social media and likes and clicks and you know, just that drive to make other people happy, which I’m realizing can’t be it for me. I’m about making an impact and improving lives and doing that in a way that’s authentic and real for me and still having some privacy and some space at the same time.

Amy: Yeah, have you ever fallen prey to the feel like you need to fix or heal or immediately have a positive impact on someone who is suffering in a way that maybe is beyond what really is appropriate for you to be doing?

Ashleigh: I will say my mother is one of the most giving people I have ever met and so it’s easy for me to kind of be able to use her as an example. She used to stop on our way to church and pick up somebody who needed help and go miles out of her way to… even when we didn’t have any money to support somebody in need. She’s often bringing, even just going to visit her for a short period of time, bringing somebody home from the grocery store because they were hungry.

You’re like, I don’t think many people would do that, that is a choice (laughter) that you made. As generous as that is, I think I’ve learned a ton from her, positive in that spirit of generosity and giving that’s clearly deeply embedded in who I am. But also learned some boundaries for myself and ways that sometimes those activities can de-prioritize others in one’s life that are important or can lead to some, I think accidental tradeoffs. So just being really intentional in what is a priority at any given moment.

And making the investments as thoughtful as possible and I’m giving you a literal, tangible example, but my husband and I chose the last name Axios because it means ‘weighted’ or having weighted value. And it’s a reminder for us to do just that, but to use our time intentionally for the things that are going to make an impact. And to weigh those decisions really thoughtfully and we do that together and try to use the last name as a reminder.

Amy: Well, even choosing your own last name is a really intentional act.

Ashleigh: For us, it came more naturally than perhaps folks would expect because he’s also a designer by trade and so we were thinking, as we were getting ready to get married, about our values and who we wanted to be. And it sort of naturally turned into a creative brief (laughter), you know…

Amy: Made for each other.

Ashleigh: Yeah (laughter), we were trying to figure out name stuff and it feels like such a, sometimes gendered choice and we’re unpacking some of those layers and he had a name that was changed when his family came to the United States and I had a very common generic last name prior. And I also had middle names, one for my mom, one for my dad, so I’m like, they’re both represented (laughter)…

Amy: Not erasing anyone.

Ashleigh: Yeah, they’re covered. So yeah, it gave us the space to be able to just explore a last name that would have meaning for us and yeah, so that’s how that came about.

Amy: I like that, yeah, and I love how intentionally you’re living your life and spending your energy and directing all the creative energy and labor you have to give to the world, being very focused and intentional with that and I really appreciate that. And I guess my last question for you would be is, what are you intentionally focusing on in terms of your future? What are you steering yourself toward?

Ashleigh: Well, I think especially in the United States we can get focused on just our labor for economy, for enterprise, for all of that. So some things I’m working on totally on myself, totally separate from any of that or like exercising fitness goals, kind of reading and just from a variety of authors who inspire me across different disciplines and genres and loving it. And just finding time for family, especially as this pandemic continues and there’s so much happening in the world, just investing in the people around me who I love really deeply. So those aren’t the big splashy things, but they’re, I think what has me really excited and feeling like I’m in a totally new evolution for myself and owning the work and then clearly owning those things that are not at all labor in this next phase of life.

Amy: I think that’s a really important aspect of keeping yourself a balanced human (laughs). And a balanced human that’s able to keep contributing without burning out, but also that’s able to actually, like actively try to enjoy the beauty of this lived experience.

Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, I think what’s the phrase, ‘joy is an act of resistance,’ when there’s so much weight in this world, is just a beautiful and an intentional thing to do. So making room for that especially in times when it’s hard and our rights might get stripped away (laughs). We’ve got to make those investments.

Amy: Well, thank you for making the investment with me today and with our listeners. I really, really enjoyed your story and I appreciate your candor, thank you so much.

Ashleigh: Thank you so much for having me.

Amy: Hey, thanks so much for listening. For a transcript of this episode, and more about Ashleigh, including images of her work, and a bonus Q&A - head to cleverpodcast.com. If you can think of 3 people who would be inspired by Clever - please tell them! It really helps us out when you share Clever with your friends. You can listen to Clever on any of the podcast apps - please do hit the Follow or subscribe button in your app of choice so our new episodes will turn up in your feed.We love to hear from you on LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter - you can find us @cleverpodcast and you can find me @amydevers. Please stay tuned for upcoming announcements and bonus content. You can subscribe to our newsletter at cleverpodcast.com to make sure you don’t miss anything. Clever is hosted & produced by me, Amy Devers, with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan and music by El Ten Eleven. Clever is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit airwavemedia.com to discover more great shows. They curate the best of them, so you don’t have to.

What is your earliest memory?

I have early vignettes like bath time with beach sand gathering in the bottom of the tub, crickets in a corner, and the smell of my grandpa's wood pipe and cigars.

Ashleigh Axios sets up for the shot of the maker project of a cardboard dinosaur on the White House lawn to kick off the 2015 National Week of Making.

How do you feel about democratic design?

If we mean democratic design as relates to design that supports democracy and its principles, we’re in the midst of a really critical gravitational pull toward this type of work within the design industry. It’s great news. We need more designers of all types working to improve the services, products, and systems by, within, and for democracy. We need them doing this work with an understanding of the social, environmental, political, economic, and other barriers to effective and just systems. We need the very systems of democracy we rely on to be iterated on in order to root out the injustices often embedded deep within them. This is the hard, but incredibly rewarding work we’re taking on from a few angles at Coforma.

What’s the best advice that you’ve ever gotten?

Some of the best advice I’ve gotten, though indirectly, was something President Obama shared with a class of interns during his second term in office. He told them to focus on what they wanted to achieve, the impact they want to make, and not on a title or position.

If you focus on achieving a title or position and you don't succeed, you'll likely be crushed. However, if you focus on issue areas you’re passionate about — like creating safer pathways to citizenship or improving health equity through life-affirming processes — you can move forward with greater resilience, knowing you have multiple paths toward success, the ability to pivot if one step doesn’t go as hoped, and momentum for creating a lasting legacy in alignment with your values and vision.

How do you record your ideas?

In whatever the easiest, most natural way is at that moment. For example, on the pages of a desk journal made of upcycled scrap paper, on the margins of my to-do list, or in a DM to myself in our company Slack account where I can set digital reminders.

What’s your current favorite tool or material to work with?

Policy, as both a tool and material that can create impact when it’s implemented thoughtfully. I’ve recently been enjoying leading teams to design and implement policy solutions—with a focus on inclusive, equitable approaches to doing so.

Behind the scenes: Ashleigh Axios helps set up Michelle Obama to pose with Bo and Sunny to support the Affordable Care Act, 2014

What book is on your nightstand?

Black Joy Archive Volume 2 by Zoë Pulley

Why is authenticity in design important?

When we’re authentic, we’re able to attract those with shared values, build community, defend our positions and decisions thoughtfully, recognize when we’ve accidentally acted out of alignment with our values and intent, and engage in more constructive debates with those with differing points of view. We’re also able to own our shortcomings, working to correct them and/or offset them so as not to cause harm with our creations.

Ashleigh and her husband, Nathaniel, in 2016.

Favorite restaurant in your city?

DC is flush with great eats at different levels of accessibility, culture, and mood.

A few of my current favorite casual dining experiences:

Roy Boys, a casual-cool fried chicken place.

Chiko, a modern combination of Chinese-Korean cuisine.

Tiger Fork, a contemporary Hong Kong style kitchen.

Bantam King, ramen and Japanese-style fried chicken joint.

A few of my favorite very-big-night-out restaurants in DC:

Pineapple and Pearls, an upscale American restaurant that plays on tradition and experimentation.

Minibar, a high-end avant-garde style eating experience that pushes expectations and senses.

Elizabeth's Gone Raw, a multi-course, raw-vegan fine-dining experience.

What might we find on your desk right now?

Little emoji cards from Connection Kits, a photo of Nathaniel and I together, and a little electric-heated sleeping mat for our cat.

Who do you look up to and why?

My ancestors and elders. I sometimes find the world so utterly exhausting even though I’ve had it much easier for much less time than them. They inspire me in numerous ways.

What’s your favorite project that you’ve done and why?

One of our recently completed projects was supporting the Presidential COVID-19 Health Equity Task Force (HETF).

In January 2021, President Biden and Vice President Harris chartered the HETF via Executive Order 13995 to “provide recommendations for addressing health inequities caused by the COVID-19 pandemic and for preventing such inequities in the future.” The CDC Foundation engaged us to support the Task Force staff’s effort to evaluate social and health disparities and synthesize recommendations to advance health equity in communities of color and underserved populations. Our approach enabled Task Force staff to evaluate and synthesize numerous levels of information and layers of data within the rapidly changing government and health ecosystems.

The work we did with the Task Force staff resulted in cohesive, enduring final recommendations and a proposed implementation plan founded on a health-justice-in-all-policies approach. And it’s one of those instances where we didn’t just produce a report or provide information–government moved quickly after identifying a pressing issue, and action started right away. Already, more than 80% of the recommendations presented in the final report have been acted upon.

We were fortunate enough to be able to put our emotion, passion, and skill into work that is making a difference, doing so during a time and around a complex set of issues over which so many felt powerless. It was a personal and professional privilege.

What are the last five songs you listened to?

West Indies, Koffee
Make Me Feel, Skip Markley, Rick Ross, Ari Lennox
Eternal Light, Free Nationals, Chronixx
How Much Can A Heart Take, Lucky Daye, Yebba
Witchoo, Durand Jones & The Indications, Aaron Fraze

Where can our listeners find you on the web and on social media?

www.ashleighaxios.com

www.coforma.io

Clever is produced and hosted by Amy Devers with editing by Rich Stroffolino, production assistance from Ilana Nevins and Anouchka Stephan, and music by El Ten Eleven.